Firearms?

[iSuck345]

I din't said that they were related, I ment that since we were adding something that broke the atmosphere of the game because it makes me feel like I'm in the Renaissance era and not in a steampunk era. Also why do you think harpoon launchers are gonna exist? For show off? I think not, good sir.

[Kamos]

Pretty sure Chris has mentioned harpoon launchers. I think they'll mainly be mounted on walls though.

[Boonjagga]

I don't know why but I'm really liking the idea of those air guns.

[ireadam]

I didnt think people would take this so seriously, I guess I had a valid point.

[iSuck345]

Anyways, harpoon guns exist to tell guns to be a cliché in another game, and we should be thankfull for that.

[Scotterius]

Do you realize that existing cross bows were more powerful and more accurate than early firearms? Steel crossbows are nasty. Long bows have a much higher rate of fire and longer range and are indirect weapons (hard to block when moving). The advantages that fire arms have is that they are easy to train and cheap. They were introduced in Europe in the late 1300s. The middle ages continued for over 200 years.

The world of kenshi exists with a level of fabrication that is beyond the middle ages. Please see this.
http://www.indiedb.com/games/kenshi/ima ... 2#imagebox

That is Kenshi. The ability to manipulate metal like that and extrude pipes is really all you need to make modern fire arms...that and gunpowder (which is not that hard as long as you have a sulfur source). No body is talking about modern overly powerful weapons, in a game that's title means 'swordsmen' it doesn't make sense.

I think that an air gun with a large air pump lever would be excellent. I like the idea of having to have to stand to pump it, and maybe the pump handle could also serve as a stand for it. This would result in a weapon that is easy to train in, but takes a long time to reload, and has a set up time (placing the lever-stand in the ground and sighting) before every shot. I also like that a composite bow would make an excellent finesse alternative.

Oh and ... Sleep darts + Slavery = Profit!

[Dem0n5]

God forbid there exist one "medieval" type game without going into the gun crap. Can't have one of those, nope nope nope!

[Scotterius]

God forbid there exist one "medieval" type game without going into the gun crap. Can't have one of those, nope nope nope!

Katy bar the door and welcome to the forums

[Dem0n5]

Katy bar the door and welcome to the forums

Haha, thanks!

[zibathy]

Okay, no. Guns are simply impractical. If i remember correctly...this game is post-apocalyptic... And in a desert. Tell me how something as impractical as a gun fits into this? Where would you acquire the gunpowder? Idgaf about 1600 and how swords and guns worked together. The end game will end up just being acquiring guns because everything else is useless. Nothing in this game scales, meaning you could run into a squad of gunmen with base stats right when out start the game. Seriously, wtf are you guys thinking? What fun is there is pretending to be napoleon and having 50 guys lined up with guns shooting at 50 other guys lined up with guns? And you would never run into a lone gunman and overwhelm him because only a large wealthy faction could produce them, thus you'd have large companies of men armed with guns. How do you beat that with anything other than more guns? It would destroy this game and has no business here. It is illogical in every sense. You'd have to mass produce them... Which would mean you would need a factory... Oh wait those don't exist post apocalyptic. If you suggest a smithy making them like they did before 1800, one part stops working and you need to take time to make another unique part for that one gun. Time consuming and needless micromanagement, since each gun would be unique due to human error. You have to train them, the guns would have a chance of exploding and just killing you if your smithy isn't versed in creation of guns, its just ridiculous. Just stop. This isnt even a place for... ANY firearm. They will always win against swordsmen. Accuracy increases as range decreases, so charging them will get you killed. A .70 caliber BB flying at 700 meters per sec is an instant kill. Game over. You lose. One lucky shot and everything you've ever worked for is gone. Just bs. No. I hate the idea with a burning passion.

Its a block of words because i had to type this on my iPhone cause i have to go places. Cant be on the computer currently due to it being 200 miles from me.

[wolfleader01]

i totaly agree i think fire arms would ruin this game, its lovely the way it is with swords and possibly bow and arrow/ crossbow might be fun, but guns would deffinatly ruin the game and the brilliant close combat system that it has

[Santaissick]

To Zibathy


No offence But maybe you should read the whole conversation.

It has been very sophisticated topic so far and there have been good reasoning for both, against firearms and for the firearms. And I think nearly every point you said there has been already recognized and thought and proved, with historical facts, that firearms wouldn't be so overkilling.

Though, I agree with you that guns may not perfectly fit to Kenshi, since the name already means swordsman. But I also think, that they have exactly the same balancing issues as any ranged weapon like bows, crossbows and throwing weapons have. If they are well made, well balanced and thought out, they will add new tactical possibilities and more variety to gameplay.

But they really need to be well balanced, for example, Total war: Shogun 2 Fall of the samurai is great game, but the balance between traditional units and modern units is failure. Firearms will always win. But when playing online, there can be battle Shogun 2-units versus Fall of the samurai-units. In those battles balance works well. Maybe Shogun 2 units even have slight advantage.

[Scotterius]

Wow. It dosent matter if range weapons are fire arms, rocks, bows, cross bows, rocket launchers or orbital strikes... it is reasonable that all of them would be balanced to maintain swordplay. A range weapon is simply a graphic with some ballistic property...which is arbitrary fantasy. From gameplay people could be complaining that firearms are to 'weak'. (Likely they would be.)

Nobody want the melee dynamic to change, or least I have not heard that...from a reasonable person.

I think that gunpowder is far more troublesome that firearms themselves. It is a shame because the dynamics of gunpowder ingredients really appeals to me. Being able to control sulfur would be a fantastic in game goal. (Perhaps the same could be done with ingredients for alloys). As great as gunpowder weapons could be, I think that eliminating them would give rise to more interesting weapons and siege tactics.

Edit: and ninja'd by Mr. Santaissick

[zibathy]

I read the first page and had enough. Stop trying to ruin the god damn game. And no. They are impractical. Its such a stupid idea it hurts. Oh no a game without f***ing guns! Better change that! Bows are not the same as guns. Getting hit with an arrow isnt always fatal. Muskets were around 70 caliber. That would TAKE OFF YOUR HEAD. Its not even remotely similar, otherwise extermination of every army that didnt use firearms wouldnt be so total. Its not even a contest. Guns are one hit one kill. The further back in time you go, the bigger the bullets, and the more inaccurate guns were. Guns mean a one hit kill. This isnt call of duty. Stop. Innacuracy of .1% doesnt make it so the gun doesnt blast pieces of your organs into orbit when it does hit you. Add a bayonette and you have a spear of explosive death that nothing beats. Go add firearms to some game i dont like, not this one. Thanks. But i will go read the rest of this thread.

[zibathy]

Wow. It dosent matter if range weapons are fire arms, rocks, bows, cross bows, rocket launchers or orbital strikes... it is reasonable that all of them would be balanced to maintain swordplay. A range weapon is simply a graphic with some ballistic property...which is arbitrary fantasy. From gameplay people could be complaining that firearms are to 'weak'. (Likely they would be.)

Except thats unrealistic. This isn't WoW. A shotgun doesn't do 600 damage. It tears you in half when it's a smooth bore musket. The reason they chopped off limbs in the US civil war wasn't just because modern surgery didn't exist, its because bone would be shattered like glass and limb were bloody messes.

[Scotterius]

Except thats unrealistic. This isn't WoW. A shotgun doesn't do 600 damage.

Ok, I will chew on your straw man there...because it is kind of my point. It is not realism, it is a game. Hence the bit you quoted of mine that went "arbitrary fantasy values", and the bit about preserving sword play.

In reality...there exists many games where knights and fire arms run together and its fine (like the entire Warhammer fantasy series). In fact my favorite games of all time have a mix of melee weapons and range weapons that include rocket launchers, machine guns and more powerful weapons. (I will drop one called 'Fallout', it came out in 1997). These games work great. In fact I cant think of a single post industrial game that does not have firearms...although I suspect they exist.

I personally like the idea of bows and harpoon guns, but I am not thrilled with cross bows. I think that most of the arguments against firearms (especially early examples) are equally appropriate to steel crossbows. I would like even more awkward ranged weapons, I think they would add to the charm. I am not arguing for firearms at all at this point, but I feel your argument has been trumped by better ones. I appreciate your opinion though, and I totally get where you are coming from.

Edit: Unless you dont like 'Fallout', then yeah...I dont care

[Dem0n5]

I'm sure there are tons of people that like playing the gun vs sword dynamic, but it's really not interesting at all anymore. The transition from samurai to matchlock weapons has been overdone to the point that it just feels gimicky. It'll really be a breath of fresh air to play a game that is purely on one side of the fence, not trying to straddle it.

Just wanted to expand on my initial post.

[iSuck345]

Did you know that a shot from a matchlock was deadlier than a sword? It's because of the poisonous chemicals it has and that can contaminate the body REAL BADLY. So I guess that crossbows and longbows don't have that either, hm?

[zibathy]

I personally like the idea of bows and harpoon guns, but I am not thrilled with cross bows. I think that most of the arguments against firearms (especially early examples) are equally appropriate to steel crossbows.

I feel the same. I don't think crossbows should be added either. And I don't think anyone's argument trumps mine which is why I didn't stop talking after the first person facepalmed at my argument because that is the most effective way of arguing, by just discrediting them. Anyways, I have played Fallout and Fallout is actually my favorite videogame series of all time. However... the technology they have there is very substantial, they literally have automated robots. I mean, come on. How hard could it be where society has been partially rebuilt, and you have robots, to get material for gunpowder? People buy the ammo from somewhere where the ammunition is manufactured, and then loot it off of people who bought it, and some people scavenge the primers and make the lead out of scrap metal (which you can do, as you well know), etc. In this game there's no evidence you even have contact with any place other then where you can walk to. No radios, even. Not even carrier pidgeons for god's sake. That seems like it would be difficult to create organized mining operations and resource plundering.
On a side note I like how you guys are all intelligent, and it's too bad I'm getting all riled up on this subject, but it is freaking serious and I actually would quit the game if they added guns. It would either make the game horrifically unrealistic (Gun does 15 damage to your head... puts your bleeding rate up to .7... makes sense. /sarcasm) or completely unbalanced. And in other games they didn't attempt the realism Kenshi is going after, so the line between this being 'just a game' and 'real life' is thin, in the sense of game mechanics... I am well aware it is not real life though

ALSO... if the people in kenshi have no idea what guns even are, it would be virtually impossible to reinvent gunpowder, since it was invented by a Chinese alchemist who was trying to make a fancy medicine. I don't know if that exact scenario would ever happen a second time... it seems like it was come across by accident, so I dunno. Doesn't seem likely to me. So only the airguns really seem like a possibility in my head.

... just thought I'd emphasis I'd dislike steel crossbows just as much... amazing accuracy with armor penetration? Just insanity. With reusable ammunition? srsly? pls no.

Also, I agree with Dem0n5.

[Scotterius]

And I don't think anyone's argument trumps mine

As I understand it, you are against firearms because there is no way to model them in a way that you would like. The presence of which would make you quit Kenshi. This has been said multiple times, sometimes again and again by the same person. I understand this argument, I have made it myself.

Here are some reasons that I feel are stronger:

1. There is a portion of the audience that are prejudiced against firearms. They feel very strongly about the matter and are unwilling to try it. Obviously, the firearm and sword component does work in other games. However, the irrational fear that the element cannot be balanced is a rational reason to not include them. I feel this too, and I think that this is the strongest reason.

2. Gunpowder raises serious game play problems outside of firearms. While other games have shown that guns can exist along side melee, more serious issues arise from other uses of gunpowder. These would be things like grenades, mines, and cannons that are logical uses of gunpowder.

3. (This is my favorite reason.) Other unique weapons could replace the niche of firearms that could potentially be more interesting and not have the emotional baggage. These could be things like Dart guns, javelins, air guns, and repeating crossbows (which seem to be kind of weak historically). I think running into Atlatl fire (if you can call it that) would be awesome.

Edit: I made a new topic on Features to talk about range weapons, with the exclusion of firearms. I even made a picture.