Slavery?

[Maan]

Only reasoning in present-day terms, though: in other cultures/times, a free man would rather die fighting than live doing menial labor.

It's a sad truth that life has gained some inherent value only when life expectancy has soared high. When people expect to die early anyway from disease or something, they assess a lot less value to life.

This is also true the other way round, when life expectancy suddenly lowers: in war, for example.

[Hvizeu]

Why should choosing not to sell slaves have a positive reward, karmic or otherwise?

To further support this,why should slaving have a negative connotation for that matter? Take a starving bandit, how long do you think they live out in the waste? What is their life like? Being enslaved and sold to a farm is a huge leap in social status. They now have shelter, they now have food, they can now work without risking their lives every day.

Questions like these in turn question the modern day sentimentality of freedom and its value. This is vital to learn its importance, meaning, and recognize real life threats to personal liberty. This has real life value, and is a good reason to include the aspect in the game.

I honestly think that selling into slavery is a far kinder act than leaving them to bleed out in the desert. Degrees of slavery (indentured servant, work prisoner, wage slavery) could be implemented to focus the moral nature of slavery.

You sir have never studied the history of the world nor philosophy then, seeing a phrase such as "I honestly think that selling into slavery is a far kinder act than leaving them to bleed out in the desert." makes my brain melt and explicitates WHY i dont want this kind of feature unless it is highly complex and full of opinions (the good, the bad and the motherfucker on top of the fence), puting a simplistic system on such a impotant theme is one of the things that may lead to thoughts such as the ones above.
I dont expect you people to understand about slavery and oppression after seeing the coments on this thread, i presume that most of you are white, from a rich country (nothern hemiphere), middle-high class, and i can bet huge amounts of explosions that you never had a day where food lacked on your plate and you had to work for it ... and now i see that you also dont have proper philosophy and history teachings as well.

My conclusions: we need to send a shipment of decent teachers to the north hemisphere, and we need to take serious themes SERIOUSLY,...bloddy bollocks.

anticipations ps.: If you thought, "bitch please, you are taking video-games way to seriously" here is your anticipated response: Almost noone took video-games seriously for the last 20 year and look at where it got us, people play more FPS then any other kind of games such as kenshi (wich is a lot more complex and satisfactory btw) or limbo (realy creative) and other games that actualy have some art to it, its just "entretainment tru blood" as i call it, we also have parents completly forgeting to talk to their kids, just telling them "im busy go play your video games" when they get aproched by their own spawn, what in the bloody hell you think that is going to create in that childs future? she just swaped parents attention for whatever the fuck is inside her video-game, to conlcude: Video-games are part of the post-modern society and should not be treated as merely a entretainment as it is a tool in the wrong or right hands.

[DrSalvador]

You sir have never studied the history of the world nor philosophy then, seeing a phrase such as "I honestly think that selling into slavery is a far kinder act than leaving them to bleed out in the desert." makes my brain melt and explicitates WHY i dont want this kind of feature unless it is highly complex and full of opinions (the good, the bad and the motherfucker on top of the fence), puting a simplistic system on such a impotant theme is one of the things that may lead to thoughts such as the ones above.
I dont expect you people to understand about slavery and oppression after seeing the coments on this thread, i presume that most of you are white, from a rich country (nothern hemiphere), middle-high class, and i can bet huge amounts of explosions that you never had a day where food lacked on your plate and you had to work for it ... and now i see that you also dont have proper philosophy and history teachings as well.

My conclusions: we need to send a shipment of decent teachers to the north hemisphere, and we need to take serious themes SERIOUSLY,...bloddy bollocks.

anticipations ps.: If you thought, "bitch please, you are taking video-games way to seriously" here is your anticipated response: Almost noone took video-games seriously for the last 20 year and look at where it got us, people play more FPS then any other kind of games such as kenshi (wich is a lot more complex and satisfactory btw) or limbo (realy creative) and other games that actualy have some art to it, its just "entretainment tru blood" as i call it, we also have parents completly forgeting to talk to their kids, just telling them "im busy go play your video games" when they get aproched by their own spawn, what in the bloody hell you think that is going to create in that childs future? she just swaped parents attention for whatever the fuck is inside her video-game, to conlcude: Video-games are part of the post-modern society and should not be treated as merely a entretainment as it is a tool in the wrong or right hands.

Dude, chill. Not only are you insulting his intelligence but you are assuming you are the only sensible person here. "and now i see that you also dont have proper philosophy and history teachings as well" Really man?
So you think most everyone here is and uneducated rich white person? I really think you need to re-evaluate things. pretty much all your post was agressive and unnecessary. We're just trying to provide ideas for Chris's game, not argue about who's is right. Everyone's ideas are good and welcome. Who are you to say otherwise?
Also dropping F-Bombs everywhere isn't very becoming.

With that, why exactly is morality such a huge question? It's slavery, there isn't really any morailty. Now do we want the player to inadvertently become some sadistic death-dealer? no, not really. I honestly don't think the slavery mechanic should go deep enough to provide those moral afterthoughts. I wouldn't think a system of keeping them oppressed would be good, since that's bringing morality back in, and let's face it. if the mechanic gets that ... involved?, then everyone's going to grab slaves and have them run their place, and it won't really provide much choice, you know? that's the easiest route, so therefore the easiest to go along with.

[Hvizeu]

Dude, chill. Not only are you insulting his intelligence but you are assuming you are the only sensible person here. "and now i see that you also dont have proper philosophy and history teachings as well" Really man?

Where am i assuming i am the only sensible person here? quote it if you can will you? and the only person that is seriously feeling insulted right now and before, its me, this thread itsel it insulting, i am a huge fan of kenshi and i have the right to say my onpinion in this matter where every on its just saying "yes i want to makes slaves please".

So you think most everyone here is and uneducated rich white person?

Nope , "i presume that most of you are white, from a rich country (nothern hemiphere), middle-high class" can you not read?

I really think you need to re-evaluate things. pretty much all your post was agressive and unnecessary.

Please go back some pages and watch the conversation, i am acctualy one of the few that was argumentating what i am defending, i don't just "want this frigging slavery ou o my gamez...!!" i am saying why and giving examples.

We're just trying to provide ideas for Chris's game, not argue about who's is right. Everyone's ideas are good and welcome. Who are you to say otherwise?

Well, every idea its an idea, the good and welcome thing is personal and varies, and my opionion is that slavery is a bad and unwelcome one, thanks for repecting that by the way.

Also dropping F-Bombs everywhere isn't very becoming.

Oh sorry, do you want some tea and biscuits with your slavery raging time? (is that becoming?)

With that, why exactly is morality such a huge question?

Because maybe its what makes us function as a group and society?

It's slavery, there isn't really any morailty.Now do we want the player to inadvertently become some sadistic death-dealer? no, not really.

agree

I honestly don't think the slavery mechanic should go deep enough to provide those moral afterthoughts. I wouldn't think a system of keeping them oppressed would be good, since that's bringing morality back in, and let's face it. if the mechanic gets that ... involved?, then everyone's going to grab slaves and have them run their place, and it won't really provide much choice, you know? that's the easiest route, so therefore the easiest to go along with.

I think a shallow mechanic whould make it just a ovelooked feature that shouldnt be there (wich i might add would be tremendous), if you are going to roll a slavery system make it properly, make people hate you, make slaves try to murder you in your sleep or trying to rebel against you etc etc etc ...

[DrSalvador]

What I'm trying to say is that (in my opinion) this discussion has been blown way out of proportion. Whether we like the idea of slavery or not is irrelevant, it's a game. And your post was pretty belittling and had an air of "You're stupid, my view is right". But whatever, i won't trail on about it. Back to the slavery. Do I think it should be put in the game? Yeah, I do. I think it'd add another layer to the game along with the other multitude of features planned. I just don't really think the whole keeping them oppressed thing is a great idea. Too tedious.

Though coming home to a base and thinking "Dammit my slaves have been getting unruly again!" is a pretty funny thing to think, I can't really say I know exactly how controlling them would be implemented.

But, like I'd stated before somwhere, I do think a simple Morale system could take care of slaves, combat and a number of other things. If in a battle a party is smaller than another, they'll have lower morale, and as the team's members die off, the remaining members will have less and less morale, and may even flee or possibly surrender if they're scared enough. As for slaves, having more guards could keep their morale down, and killing escapees could keep the others' morale in check. I would stay away from punishing escaping prisoners and just allow to kill them. that keeps it a little simpler and the whole moral (not morale) issue is better that way.

[zibathy]

Nobody cares Hvizeu. If you're just gonna insult the bros on this forum who are actually awesome, go away. You don't have to buy the game. You don't have to have slaves in the game. You think you're worth so much you can determine what people get to play and what they can't play because YOU'RE offended?

No. You don't get to do that. If you have such a problem with slavery, why don't you stop it in real life and support organisations against it with donations instead of posting on an internet forum about an indie videogame and how you don't want it implemented into it.

[zibathy]

It's like you think slavery will be reinstated because people play videogames with slavery. Nobody plays a freaking videogame and goes, "DANG SLAVES SURE ARE GRRRREAT. MAN, I CAN'T WAIT TO ENSLAVE PEOPLE IN REAL LIFE, DAYUM!" Just like when I use a rocket launcher in Borderlands 2 and it splits into 3 rockets and obliterates 7 of my foes doesn't make me go around attempting to create a rocket launcher that fires rockets that split into 3 more rockets that kill 7 people.

Basically your argument is, "People who play videogames are too stupid to know what they're really doing, so we need to teach them and show them the right way through subtle messages - they need a guiding hand to show them the way because they're too stupid to know what's right."

Durrr omg ur so smurt y dnt u teech us, i am dum wite rich man who dunt kno nething. wat is filosofy nd histry teechingz?

[Blxz]

*COMMENT REDACTED*

You know what. Answering your illiterate indignation with my own is not worth either of our time in reading. I removed it. But hold up on your presumptions since I am neither middle class, white, in the northern hemisphere or unaware what the lack of food is like.

I also would bet that much of this applies to the people in this forum who are from a whole variety of backgrounds and differing viewpoints. So lets instead, embrace all their retarded comments in much the same way as we have had to embrace yours. Debating the comments is a great thing but resorting to personal attacks or sweeping generalisations in an effort to denounce other forum members is not very nice.

[zibathy]

But hold up on your presumptions since I am neither middle class, white, in the northern hemisphere or unaware what the lack of food is like.

To build on this, I'm Japanese. Hm :/ guess we're not all 100% white. Funny how those assumptions and generalisations work.

[Blxz]

What part of japan are you from? I lived there for almost 2 years. Interesting little country.

[Corain]

This is a very sensitive subject, obviously, and at the risk of being seen as a bad person by some here I will say that I do think, in the context of Kenshi's setting, slavery is a valid option(albeit a horrible one), if well implemented, and I trust Chris knows what he's doing.
And I think it can potentially be a good way to show people, especially new players how horrible it is, since if one has a fresh character, it's easy to get captured if one is not careful.
Some might not care that much if they were captured, but it could turn into a motivational force for others,
for example: Motivation for revenge, capture and enslave the animated people who did the same to you, or indeed swear not to rest until their entire faction is in chains, which could provide for an entertaining struggle.
Or they might try to free anyone they come across as they wouldn't wish what happened to them upon anybody else no matter what the cost.

I hope I didn't come across as insensitive or offensive. If I did, I apologize, I did not intend to.

[Scotterius]

You sir have never studied the history of the world nor philosophy then, seeing a phrase such as "I honestly think that selling into slavery is a far kinder act than leaving them to bleed out in the desert." makes my brain melt ...

Yeah well, ad hominem aside then... I stand by my statement as it has not been challenged. I dont mind if it is though. I can change it later...because it is an opinion.

Only reasoning in present-day terms, though: in other cultures/times, a free man would rather die fighting than live doing menial labor.

It's a sad truth that life has gained some inherent value only when life expectancy has soared high. When people expect to die early anyway from disease or something, they assess a lot less value to life.

This is also true the other way round, when life expectancy suddenly lowers: in war, for example.

Wow, this is a really interesting point. Really great. Samurai would be a good example of this. I suspect that their avoidance of menial work resulted more from a caste society and social norms, than life expectancy. Or... maybe they are just weighing social forces against a decreased value of life. If you could point me in the direction of more information I would be interested in it.

[zibathy]

I don't live there, Blxz and I never did; but the part of my family that is Japanese is from the countryside around Nagasaki... which was back around WW2... so it's probably an urban jungle now. I'm only 1/4 Japanese, but I've spent most of my life with my Japanese grandma; she's always been my favorite family member. I just wanted to pay attention to the 1/1000th of me that's not white just to go "ha... you're wrong... kinda." Boring, I know. Sorry to disappoint you

[zibathy]

I'm American, by the way, but I've been playing videogames since I was 6 or something. And in MMOs I've always played with Europeans (mostly British) so that's why to you I sometimes spell things "right" (generalisation) and then spell them "wrong" (favorite). Most of the time I randomly choose either British or US spellings. Sorry if it gives you a headache lol.

[Maan]

Wow, this is a really interesting point. Really great. Samurai would be a good example of this. I suspect that their avoidance of menial work resulted more from a caste society and social norms, than life expectancy. Or... maybe they are just weighing social forces against a decreased value of life. If you could point me in the direction of more information I would be interested in it.

Those are more some musings of mine than something I've read (or maybe I read something somewhere but now can't rember )... I have studied sociology and cultural anthropology, and have a passion for martial arts (both eastern and european reenactment) and philosophy, you see.

It seems to me that considerations about an intrinsic value of human life only developed where you had a somewhat prosper society with enough resources and technology to allow people (at least upper classes) to live relatively long.
Not that you can ascribe human behaviour to any single cause, of course. I do think that habitat and cultural beliefs do play a heavy role.

A good book I read some years ago is "Guns, germs and steel" by Jared Diamond. Vaguely related to the topic, it looks at how local conditions influenced the development of human societies across the world.
A bit too much steeped in environmental determinism, perhaps, but it does have the merit of being easy to read even for someone who's not a sociology student.

[Hvizeu]

What I'm trying to say is that (in my opinion) this discussion has been blown way out of proportion.

I agree and i am sorry for my part in it.

But, like I'd stated before somwhere, I do think a simple Morale system could take care of slaves, combat and a number of other things. If in a battle a party is smaller than another, they'll have lower morale, and as the team's members die off, the remaining members will have less and less morale, and may even flee or possibly surrender if they're scared enough. As for slaves, having more guards could keep their morale down, and killing escapees could keep the others' morale in check. I would stay away from punishing escaping prisoners and just allow to kill them. that keeps it a little simpler and the whole moral (not morale) issue is better that way.

I think this negative morales system for the slaves is intresting, reminds me the brytenwalda mod for mount and bland in the regards of the troops defecting or fleeing in battle.

//

If you have such a problem with slavery, why don't you stop it in real life and support organisations against it with donations instead...

Hahahahahaha....you serioulsy think that giving money to a organization stops slavery? And about what i do and believe, endorse or hate, you dont have a say in that.

Nobody cares Hvizeu.

You dont have to that's why it is an opinion.

//

Basically your argument is, "People who play videogames are too stupid to know what they're really doing, so we need to teach them and show them the right way through subtle messages - they need a guiding hand to show them the way because they're too stupid to know what's right."

Basically...no, that is not what i am saying.

//

You know what. Answering your illiterate indignation with my own is not worth either of our time in reading. I removed it. But hold up on your presumptions since I am neither middle class, white, in the northern hemisphere or unaware what the lack of food is like.

Gratz you are 1, so my assumption is still plausible.

//

To build on this, I'm Japanese...I'm American, by the way,... Hm :/ guess we're not all 100% white. Funny how those assumptions and generalisations work...I'm only 1/4 Japanese,...I just wanted to pay attention to the 1/1000th of me that's not white just to go "ha... you're wrong... kinda." Boring, I know. Sorry to disappoint you

Nice speech.

And by the way, the "white" i was referring to is not to you biological categorization, it was more of a social aspect such as society sees it, you may be 1/10000 asian but the whiter your skin is, the less chances you have of suffering social prejudices. I personaly have 5 different biological origins: Syrian, African, Brazil native, Italian and portuguese, so i have a syrian nose and eyes, i am darker than society would wish and i have a beard and tattoos so i've had trouble with skinheads(aka neo-nazis) chasing me, security guys asking me to remove my-self from places, police stoping me all the time....so you understand my point on the social side of the "white" word.

//

@Corain, that is one of the most well expressed and articulated opinions i've seen so far, and i agree with your opinion.

//

Yeah well, ad hominem aside then... I stand by my statement as it has not been challenged. I dont mind if it is though. I can change it later...because it is an opinion.

Well ok lets chalenge it, would you rather be striped of all possetions, abused phisically and mentaly, having your own labouring limits chalenged every day, bad and scarse food, beeing beaten and bruised and sexually abused (if it is what your keeper wants) for the rest of your probably short life (taking in consideration theese conditions), or would you rather just die in the battle or desert?

//

That is all, im sorry for the offense (Scotterius), i stick to my position on slavery, but i respect some coments here and think it would be good to see some of those features, chris if you are still reading this just be sure to no put "Amazing new slavery system!" on the back of retail box...not very comercialyzing...love you all...exept the slavers.

[Ondru]

+1 for slavery. I need cheap labor for my mines. My defeated enemies shall become my slaves.

[Blxz]

Gratz you are 1, so my assumption is still plausible.

What...? I don't even get this. Your assumptions are a crock of shit. Although I now understand your position...

so you understand my point on the social side of the "white" word.

...you have an axe to grind. This has nothing to do with anything expressed in this thread other than [start highly racist accent] the white man keeping the black man down [/end accent*].

Well, good luck with your little crusade. Hope it makes you feel better after all the suffering you must have when people judge you immediately by your looks and other shallow facets without considering the person underneath DESPITE the fact that your empty and incorrect assumptions are pretty much doing the exact same thing in reverse. But then again, all the power to you.

[toaster Assassin]

There is rasism,bias,hatred and ignorance in many cultures/ethnicities worldwide. (sectarian violence, genocide,North province vs South,even hatred to one's own people).


As long as people affiliate themselves with something, there will always be difference. (Why? Because humans are ass-holes.)

Topic needs to get back on track. (i.e. happy-go-lucky discussion of forum ethnicity fun time is now over)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/Topic: slavery/

-Currently, I know that Chris is planning on implementing slavery. (cages for prisoners)

-There is a faction called "Slavers"

-I know that the player will be able to obtain slaves.

-I also know that ANY of the player's characters can be captured and subjected to slavery as well (So any of the player's characters will be subjected to the same terms, i.e . slave treatment)
NPC & Player = have equal ability to enslave one another


Slavery is a PLANNED factor in this game,(currently) so how would YOU construct its framework? (What do you think or want)

-What role/purpose will slavery play in Kenshi? (EX: soldiers? workers? eventual release? ransom?)
-How will/should the slavery feature function? (EX Based on guard presence?, stress level?, nearby allies?)
-What will/should be the limitations to the slavery feature? (EX: treatment of slaves?)

[Blxz]

Ok, I will reiterate my previous point from the last page:

I think there should be no bonus for releasing at all. In a slaving world the only reason to release them should be one of economics. If you cannot afford to feed or control as many slaves as you have then you should sell or release them.

Since it is a slaving world there is no moral judgement call here. Boosting faction relations or some other benefit in-game is fake (unless there is a dedicated anti slaving faction) and doesn't fit. Furthermore, this might actually ENCOURAGE people to take slaves in an effort to then release them for the benefits. Lets look at a current game example: players are actually attacking enemy factions and beating their dudes, then healing them and putting them in beds in order to gain a net relations bonus. This is how I see slavery if a bonus is added for releasing.

I think a mostly dispassionate view of them is best. Although feel free to include them whining and crying about freedom if you want to talk to them (or whatever you want to do to highlight their plight) but please don't make people gain something other than personal self-satisfaction from releasing them.