Body Decay

Discussion of gameplay issues and experiences, game balance and suggestions for tweaks and modification of the existing systems.
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toaster Assassin
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:02 am

SynysterOne Said:

Be glad you got away with only a broken leg and stop worrying about loot.

Chris had intended for there to be no save feature in this game.
He intended for you to have to crawl or stumble or be carried back to a town.
He intended for you to bleed out even when bandaged and lose that character forever and have to start over.

This was intended to be a hardcore game.


Ha ha be lucky I got away, I travel 16 strong . The issue I presented was what dictated the body decay the best, and what worried me was when my scav units are crippled (and my best have full packs) how long do I have till the choice objects disappear due to body decay. I have no worries about the "hardcore" factor or if I can save just before battle, but when my people are slowed how much time do they have to collect the spoils from war?


I do agree with your stance on saving though.
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SynysterOne
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:45 am

Okay, to give you an idea of how long you have.

WARNING: PURE SPECULATION

You've got your wounds in the status panel.
Above them, you have your blood.
You lose that amount of blood, every in-game minute.
I've never had the number get to 1. But I've had it it get high enough for my blood to tick down awfully low.
When your blood hits 0, you collapse.
I have 90 blood on one of my characters.
If I suffer enough damage to where I'm losing 1 blood every in-game minute, I will be laying on the ground in roughly an hour and 30 minutes in-game time.
I believe if you get to -100 blood, you are dead, you have bled out.

The same goes for the stomach, chest, and head. If you hit -100 you die. Don't know how these decrease after you are below 0 in them.


You start with 75 blood, and the most you can have is 150. So you start out being able to survive an hour and 15 minutes.

I believe with your 'average' lethal wound, you lose 1 blood every in-game minute.
I believe it's a 2 hour run from Brink to Shark. So, worst case scenario, you are exactly in between both of them. So it's an hour run either way.
You(with your lethal wound)can run full out to either town and be there in an hour.
WAIT, you couldn't run full out for an hour, much less while you are bleeding to death. You'd probably even bleed out twice as fast while you are running.
You can last just under 40 minutes while running.
You won't make it.
You could bandage yourself to slow the bleeding by half. This would make you last 2 hours and 30 minutes. If you don't move.
Since you have to walk to town, you probably agitate your wound.
---------------------------------------CUTTING THIS STORY SHORT.
You most likely end up bleeding out before you reach your destination. It's a LETHAL WOUND for a reason. Dealing with it alone, in the wild, means you are going to die if you don't have serious medical skills.

But, if you have an ally who can carry you. Then you wouldn't agitate the wound therefore you'd probably make it back to town.


Back to the origional question though.
How long do I have to loot my enemies?
If you are alone? None.
If you have 1 friend, None.
If you have 3 friends, None. Odds are you will need to alternate who is carrying you, or they'll get tired and pass out/not be able to do anything other than run. And items add weight, which they can't carry because it will hinder their stamina + they are carrying you.

IF you can make a stretcher, having a 3rd member would allow you to loot stuff, as he would carry it, and the other 2 would be able to manage you the whole way back due to the stretcher.

I believe you'll need at LEAST 4 people OTHER than yourself, to be able to loot anything.
Just to add to how crazy that is......If YOU got seriously injured, your squadmates are most likely worse off than you.


This will probably lead to situations where you have to choose who to save and a bunch of other goodies.
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Potocobe
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:27 am

Could there be item decay too? literally, like swords on the ground or sticking out of the sand rusting over time till they are basically junk. Would be cool to come across a few skeletons and rusted weapons tossed about from the last time you went through that spot a week before.

I don't imagine scavenging weapons and armor from the dead is going to be the best way to earn cats once other features are in place which makes the decay of things mostly moot in that regard. Likely you will have a fight, search the dead, upgrade the gear of your peeps with whatever is best and then hobble off to town. So far all the best gear is in shops inside of towns. Right now the only way to get cats is from scavenging but later on there will be numerous ways to earn some cats. And then all the gear you want will be bought or made. What is the idea with cats for money?

SynysterOne
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:34 am

Dunno, but I stopped scavenging corpses a loong time ago. I've been making 40k cats for each town I vists.
Trading can be VERY lucrative in this game.
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toaster Assassin
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:22 pm

Ok I see your point, but many a time I am able to keep the bleeding counter to 0.0. My concern was what will be the factors in body decay? Basically, when there is more elements implemented there will be other options for cats besides looting your defeated enemies. What are the other ways to make money, are trading goods worth more in one town than the next?
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SynysterOne
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:32 pm

toaster Assassin wrote:are trading goods worth more in one town than the next?
Yes, they are.

At the start of a new game, each town randomly sets a price for each item. This price is signified by a %. I believe the lowest you'll see is 50% of the normal value of the item and the highest is 150%
With trading rum barrels, the normal price is 1000.
With a trader backpack you can fit 60 rum barrels and some other goodies.
If you buy these rum barrels at 50% (500), in one town, and sell them for 150%(1500) in the next, you just made 60,000 cats. One town travel to the next.

Granted, there are a few limitations. Trade goods merchants only have 50,000 cats.
You might not be able to pick up 60 barrels of rum in one town.
But it's easy to clean out a goods trader completely leaving only the items that are valued at >100% and 0 cats.



I assume later on when the world is more dynamic that the prices will rise, and lower as you sell more/they run out of the item/other traders buy it/they start to produce the item.

I believe one of the possible ways envisioned to play Kenshi was as an industrial tycoon when you build your own city.
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toaster Assassin
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:44 pm

I was still scavenging like an idiot. :lol: Trading would bring another purpose to traveling to towns, I already have the merchant backpacks. (I just didn't know that chris implemented different town prices).
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ArcaneSaint
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Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:28 pm

Body decay, hmm, let's not forget that in reality, bodies can take quite some time to decay. And items worn by these bodies take even longer to decay. Unless of course, they were to be buried under sand, which if the winds are strong could happen in a matter of hours. So unless you have to spend days to get back on your feet, you'll probably still be able to make it back (or send a squad mate to go collect the loot).

Personally, I'm all for a dynamic decay time, tied to different kinds of conditions, such as weather (hopefully sand storms will one day make it into this game) and wild animals. Though bodies in the desert are known to go through a process of mummification when buried beneath the sands, lying under ground until uncovered by the shifting of dunes.
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SynysterOne
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Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:23 am

Another thing about this.
In later patches, we may not be the only ones looting corpses.
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toaster Assassin
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Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:27 am

The npc factions probably would also loot your characters unconscious bodies like in Gothic2/3 series (of course it would not matter if all current members are unconscious). If such a system is enabled it would greatly reduce the beginning characters dependance on guards for loot, which would make for a better challenge and reduce scavenging.
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HamSpanker
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Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:42 am

SynysterOne wrote:
TBFProgrammer wrote: By the way, since you can still play without using the saves as insurance, then what is the harm in letting others use it that way? Hardcore is fine (even great if it doesn't force a grind), but the game will go much further if it is simply supported, not mandated.

I never said there was a harm.
But you are taking the point that I'm deviating from what the Dev had initially planned for the game. When it is in fact you who are.
The save/load feature is ONLY in this game for the TESTING phase.

I assume he will be removing later so that he can get his idea across as to how this game was supposed to be played and what it was meant to be like.

He wants it to be a growing persistent world that gives you both ups AND downs. A great movie makes you feel happy and sad.
I believe that is what Chris is aiming for. You are only going to get half the experience if you play in a manner not intended, such as saving before doing anything risky so that all you ever get are ups without downs.
Congrats, you maximized what was possible in this game, never lost a fight because you saved before hand. Shame it wasn't actually the game that everyone else was playing, or that the Dev intended it to be.
If you want everything handed to you on a silver platter, go DL the godmode mod I made for testing and people like you.
It's the best of everything you can do in the game at this current juncture, which is what you want, is it not? Easy way to the max.


If you don't want to play the game it was meant to be, why are you here?
Surely your not here because you like the game as a whole, but don't like a feature or 2, and you intend to bitch and moan until you get the Dev to change the way he envisioned his game and change the features to what you wanted?
If you don't like the game, don't buy it. Don't even waste our time posting on this forum.
Never buy a game and then bitch at the Devs to change it to the way you want.



I'm not going to try reasoning with you anymore, you just reject anything that isn't what you want.
Let me tell you about the great wonders of singleplayer gaming. The good thing is, that players can enjoy the game, the way they want. They arent affected by other players, there are no hackers, griefers or trolls. There is only them and the game. Now the other thing is that they can tweak the game to their liking. If they want to they can save, if they want to they can mod, if they want to they could give themself 999999999999999999 cats and weapons that do 9001 damage.

AND GUESS WHAT! :o

IT WILL NOT AT ALL AFFECT YOUR GAME EXPERIENCE.
That's right.
How I play the game, will not at any point interfere with how you enjoy the game. I can save before battles and load if I lose, I can cheat and mod all I want. And you will not feel the slightest of change in your gameplay.
So why are you so obsessed with how others play the game? Why can't you enjoy the game in your "hardcore" fashion and me in the way I find the most fun? I play the same way as you, with minimum saves, but I don't care how other people play.

Just because a game is "hardcore" does not mean it is fun. It certainly makes everything more interesting, but I understand people who does not want to lose everything because they made a simple mistake.

Now let me and other people play the way we want 8-)
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LordMontgomery
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Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:37 am

You revised a one tear old thread for that?

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Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:24 pm

LordMontgomery wrote:You revised a one tear old thread for that?
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Clawdius Talonious
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Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:14 pm

This game is intended to be similar to a Roguelike in the end, in that permadeath/only one save/forced save on exit will be the typical intended game experience. However, just because that should be enabled by default doesn't mean that the game shouldn't provide for the option of disabling that in a game. While I am inclined to agree that save scumming in a game like this will deprive you of part of what makes the experience entertaining.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/article ... ve-Scummer

That doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who will do whatever they have to to play the game they want to play it, including killing the process or what have you. It seems reasonable to simply leave that possibility in, and perhaps reward people who are willing to take the risk of Hardcore mode in some way. Perhaps faster Althetic/Strength stat increases, to make up for lost units, or something akin to that.

As for the body decay, I would love to see the bodies get picked over by NPCs, perhaps even get gathered up by NPCs accounting for what happens to the corpses. It's more than a little disconcerting to see a corpse disappear right next to you, so perhaps one option is to simply disable the "decay" functionality for corpses within a certain distance of the camera. In the end however, I'd really like to see there be something useful to be done with corpses. For example, from what I understand once some of the more caustic fluids are removed, bodies can make useful fertilizer. How cool would it be to have a sort of corpse processing area, where you compost bodies and make fertile soil? The cannibal race could cut to the chase and process bodies for more, erm, immediate consumption. Perhaps the cannibal race could utilize other bits of the bodies as well, working human bones into their armors to be more imposing, that sort of thing.

To me it seems that corpses would not go to waste in a desolate land, especially not if they could be put to better use. Even if some of the factions held the use of human remains as taboo and wouldn't make use of them in any way, that would add another aspect to the game. Perhaps a few factions would dislike any use of human remains other than burial, many factions would frown upon staking your enemies out to die of exposure as a warning to others, most people in the world would cease friendly relations if they suspected you of cannibalism.

Those possibilities would likely require very little in the way of new AI interaction routines, the animations for picking up bodies are already present, and it would not only solve the whole "body decay" issue but make the world feel more alive, and present you with more options without some simple binary right/wrong as is too often the case in games today. The decisions on how you would deal with human remains would give your faction diversity that would even allow for replayability. Do you bury your dead this game, use them for compost? Or do you eat them, decorate your armor with the bones of your foes, and place their heads on spears outside your settlements?

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iSuck345
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Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:42 pm

I like the save system, and I hate checkpoints. That's all I have to say. Why? Well, why not take a beating or 2? When my character is beaten, I just heal him and he'll get even more experience. Soon I'll beat up the other bandits, buy better armour and weapons, and make the same with the other character. You don't really need saves to be almighty powerfull. Also seriously, telling someone NEVER to post again in theese forums? What kind of person are you? Forums are for EVERYONE, not just a handfull that like something. I don't really know what's going on, so let's talk about either *CENSORED*, waffles or pancakes. Or the decay thing :D.
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Naiba
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Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:53 pm

Ahh yes, the decay thing, it's now implimented! :D

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