Ridiculously Feminist Lore

[Vispilio]

Hi,

I got Kenshi on the discount sale and have been really impressed by the gritty realism and grim atmosphere. However, I've just been reading the lore entries of the game and was completely disappointed that it caters to the trendy politically correct feminist bullshit corrupting almost all mainstream art these days.

Almost every other story has ridiculously outlandish feminist undertones and cheesy praise to women like "She brutally defeated the reigning warrior king in a duel to become the new empress" or "she is a genius and an amazing leader among her people known for getting the job done through ruthless means". When has a female warrior bested a male champion in single combat in real life, to take over a throne or any position of leadership ? In a game that is famous for its brutal and hardcore depiction of human nature and the world, why would you bow down to completely inaccurate feminist propaganda like this ? Needlessly depicting women in positions of power and leadership is by far the most ridiculous feature of this game...

[HHRRIISSTT]

First off, you sound very sexist.

Secondly, this is a game, not real life. Also there have been many female rulers throughout history, if you're ignorant of that I don't see how it has anything to with this game.

[toaster Assassin]

Well hives are usually run by a queen, as they are insect-like.

As for the lore of the Sheks:

The Shek Kingdom puts little importance on academic education, meaning that most Shek can’t read – Esata is no exception to this and is not particularly intelligent. She does, however, have formidable battle skills and an open mind to rational thought. Her aide on the other hand, Bayan, is an impressive intellect. Although the talent of intellects is normally wasted in the traditional Shek Kingdom, Esata relies on Bayan for his advice, for the good of the nation.

“Bayan is my sheath. without him, I’d have gotten lost in my own ego, a corpse on Holy Nation land long ago. Those Okran scum don’t deserve to be my defeaters. With Bayan at my side, the Shek will crush them once and for all. There will be no better glory than this.”

It says here that though the female leader is strong, she is also egotistical and not too smart. Since the female leader has strengths, as well as flaws, (thereby a balanced description) I really cannot see it pushing feminist ideology. Also one more thing to consider.

History books are written by the victor/controller, so it would make sense that a lore/history book (written by a Shek cleric) would describe its living/current leader with strong praise.

Also, I think the Holy Nation treats women as 2nd class.

So basically, I really do not see any underlying ideology.(i.e. there is balance) You just weren't exposed yet to the full Kenshi lore.

If you are interested in more Kenshi lore, here is the link to most of the factions:

WARNING SPOILERS

https://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/d ... ns/5/?fp=1

[Vispilio]

First off, you sound very sexist.

Secondly, this is a game, not real life. Also there have been many female rules throughout history, if you're ignorant of that I don't see how it has anything to with this game.

You have to see the bigger picture when analyzing both this game and history. I guarantee you there is not a single case in history where a woman physically defeated a champion warrior king in combat. It's biologically and anatomically impossible. To introduce this idea as if it's a very feasible occurrence on multiple occasions, is a low point for any artistic project, and pure evil feminist propaganda designed to emasculate men permeating all forms of art in the 21st century... Wake up.

I wouldn't be surprised to see feminism's ugly head in an AAA mainstream title (which has actually ruined and completely dumbed down many beautiful movie and gaming franchises like Star Wars, post E.A. Bioware, etc.), but I think pure artistic creativity of indie projects like this should be free from all dogma, and particularly from those with dark agendas...

[toaster Assassin]

Kenshi is on another planet though.

In terms of probability, maybe the Shek leader was built.....rather large.

[HHRRIISSTT]

First off, you sound very sexist.

Secondly, this is a game, not real life. Also there have been many female rules throughout history, if you're ignorant of that I don't see how it has anything to with this game.

You have to see the bigger picture when analyzing both this game and history. I guarantee you there is not a single case in history where a woman physically defeated a champion warrior king in combat. It's biologically and anatomically impossible. To introduce this idea as if it's a very feasible occurrence on multiple occasions, is a low point for any artistic project, and pure evil feminist propaganda designed to emasculate men permeating all forms of art in the 21st century... Wake up.

Not everyone is so fragile that they consider any strong fictitious female character a deliberate attack on their masculinity. I personally find people who must constantly self-victimize / defend their masculinity against imagined attacks much more emasculating for males than strong female characters... Sleep on it.

[Vispilio]

Not everyone is so fragile that they consider any strong fictitious female character a deliberate attack on their masculinity. I personally find people who must constantly self-victimize / defend their masculinity against imagined attacks much more emasculating for males than strong female characters... Sleep on it.

My masculinity is fine bro, but if you think it's perfectly normal for women to physically beat up and otherwise belittle men in all artistic media, then you might be seriously deficient in testosterone, and indubitably challenged in the mental department for relying on cheap ad hominem comebacks as your default line of reasoning...

[Boudicca]

... ridiculously outlandish feminist undertones and cheesy praise to women ...

Sounds like you're triggered. Drink beer and relax and don't ruin the forums with all this "I'm fighting the SJW because..." nonsense. If anything has become more tiresome it's been the "they took ur job" screaming about feminism. Just let it go. Channel energy into something constructive -- the world is big enough for all of us, even people who spend hours playing games.

[HHRRIISSTT]

Not everyone is so fragile that they consider any strong fictitious female character a deliberate attack on their masculinity. I personally find people who must constantly self-victimize / defend their masculinity against imagined attacks much more emasculating for males than strong female characters... Sleep on it.

My masculinity is fine bro, but if you think it's perfectly normal for women to physically beat up and otherwise belittle men in all artistic media, then you might be seriously deficient in testosterone, and indubitably challenged in the mental department for relying on cheap ad hominem comebacks as your default line of reasoning...

Oh damn, I thought you might have a real argument for a second there Too bad! *cracks knuckles*

My masculinity is fine bro,

I never questioned your masculinity, I only mentioned what I find to be emasculating. People can have totally fine levels of testosterone and masculinity and still find certain behavior emasculating.

but if you think it's perfectly normal for women to physically beat up and otherwise belittle men in all artistic media

Pretty sure I never said "It's perfectly normal for women to physically beat up and otherwise belittle men in all artistic media," so try to avoid making up imaginary arguments that you can handle arguing against if you want to have a real conversation about this.

then you might be seriously deficient in testosterone,

I'm quite certain there's no correlation between testosterone and the normalcy of what one perceives in the media - there you go, making things up again.

indubitably challenged in the mental department for relying on cheap ad hominem

I'm sorry that you perceived something I wrote as ad hominem, but I don't think you fully comprehend my points or what ad hominem is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem , here's some light reading for you. Good luck making it through!

[Mattk50]

My masculinity is fine bro, but if you think it's perfectly normal for women to physically beat up and otherwise belittle men in all artistic media, then you might be seriously deficient in testosterone, and indubitably challenged in the mental department for relying on cheap ad hominem comebacks as your default line of reasoning...

We aren't talking about all artistic media. We are talking about one instance in one game, you have no grounds to suddenly say that the devs should change their vision of a fictional bone people race to whatever genders you feel makes more sense. Basically dude, as anti-sjw as you seem to want to be, you are the epitome of SJWism yourself.

Furthermore, you need to learn that men are stronger *on average* and that averages are not rule, they are statistical mediums with men that are both much weaker than the norm and women who are much stronger. Furthermore, kenshi is a world where nonsense ninja sword skills seem to outweigh body mass in value, and there is no reason women cant be more skilled wielding a sword than a man even if it is statistically less likely. Also, my own interpretation of the lore makes me think that the king's reliance and respect for her intelligent friend might have given her the edge, wheras perhaps other contenders were stupid, refusing to listen to their Intelligentsia and got themselves killed.

[pigiron]

*raises eyebrow* And how would you go about explaining the lack of need for sleep, then? Or that characters don't even fall over in exhaustion (i.e. no stamina meter). No kids, ever, for sentient races, although you get bonedog pups and suchlike that "age"? The super-speedy growth of crops, the swift passage of time, all that?

The answer is that this is a game. Entertainment value. In order to make that entertainment value work, some shortcuts are made. I am *glad* I don't have to micromanage my squad's bathroom habits, forex, like I do their general combat commands. There is no statistical difference between "with boobs" and "without boobs" in this game. Female characters have the same stat cap, gain skills at the same rate, and get murdered by beak things just as easy.

One possible reason for this is game balance. A lot of guys like RPing girls. Whose rear end do *you* like seeing bobbing about as you follow them across an alien landscape? It's not pro feminist (try keeping an all girl squad in Holy Nation territory) or pro male, really. What it is, is a good lot of fun.

Not that I expect to change anybody's mind who already has it made up. Play your game how you like. Just don't get all tied up in knots over it. It's *just* a game. A pretty fun one, too.

[toaster Assassin]

In order to ensure that this topic does not digress into a forum version of a slap fight, ensure that your posts are related to the topic at hand.

Topic

Ridiculously Feminist Lore = Translation: There is feminist lore in Kenshi [topic]


If you believe that there is/isn't feminist lore in Kenshi, cite/provide examples (from Kenshi) and discuss that.


Avoid:

-Referencing real world politics/religion (yes political correctness is a huge problem) however, the topic is about KENSHI and its lore. (Kenshi examples only.

-Focusing on the forum users/analyzing what you think the forum users are, instead focus on their argument about Kenshi.

Forum Rules:

http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... f=5&t=1927


Listed below is a URL that will take you to the Steam website with links to Kenshi lore articles.

Warning there are spoilers also listed:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/d ... ns/5/?fp=1

============================================================================

For the most part it seems like the conversation is well enough, carry on.......

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[Roccandil]

Blatant moralizing in games turns me off (regardless of the specific moral ruleset involved), but I haven't personally run into that in Kenshi.

(I say "moralizing" in the sense that the game is clearly trying to change the player's mind about some hot-button political/religious issue. I feel like if a fantasy world isn't a place to -escape- that sort of interpersonal-domination attempt, it isn't really a fantasy world. )

Also, the fact that slavery is possible and that the Holy Nation exists at all seems to indicate to me that the game isn't trying to be overtly "correct".

[Sol Lignum]

TL:DR

I guess the whole argument could've been prevented with a single picture, here:



It's not about history, it's not about typical phisique, it's about particular Shek female grew stronger then a particular Shek male, or maybe she used some dirty tricks, who knows?

Besides, there has to be balance: if you look into HN lore, you'll find that women there are seen merely as childbearers, they has less rights then rice in a bowl.

So, opposite to extraordinary sexist HN, every other nation treats women just fine, as an equal being.

[Vispilio]

TL:DR

I guess the whole argument could've been prevented with a single picture, here:

...

So, opposite to extraordinary sexist HN, every other nation treats women just fine, as an equal being.

Some good points have been made, and real life examples have to be included because most of creativity is inspired by real life perceptions. In that photo you reference, the woman is on massive amounts of testosterone and steroid therapy, and has very little functional strength. Even a 70kg martial artist would destroy her. There is not 1 case in history where a top female athlete has been able to surpass a top male athlete in the same field, be it football, basketball, tennis, athletics or martial arts or you name it...

I'm really not trying to make light of this game, I think it's a desert jewel of a game amidst all the politically correct AAA titles corrupting gaming. That's why any ridiculous feminist flavor is all the more astounding to encounter in this game. Meanwhile gaming might soon even overtake film as the predominant art form, so I believe it's extremely important to protect its artistic liberties. Imagine this: if the developers decided to make women have let's say a .001 bleeding multiplier, or have 300 hitpoints, would you say that was a design decision or that was outright stupid ? The same amount of logic gap exists when you try to promote female fighters, on multiple occasions, as the greatest warrior of their humanoid species. Unless it's a very specific alien race where sexual roles have been completely reversed (maybe in the insectoid case this could be believable), it's a huge logic hole, obviously written by a politically correct sjw / feminist member of their team because of their staff constraints, and should be addressed before such a promising games falls into intellectual mediocrity that has already tainted so many once top class titles...

[Chinsei]

I haven't bothered reading most of these posts after the first one or two.

But look up Boudica, an boom a warrior queen that bested many. So lets stop with the condescending belief that women can't be warriors. Joan of Arc also no doubt beat many men in combat.

"Champion" is just a pointless title given all living things can be killed by piercing their skin an letting them bleed out.

Not to mention the Sarmatian warrior women who would apparently cut off a breast just to make shooting their bow easier.

[Sol Lignum]

Roger, reasoning is pointless. *mounts Garru and rides away into the sunset*

[Vispilio]

I haven't bothered reading most of these posts after the first one or two.

But look up Boudica, an boom a warrior queen that bested many. So lets stop with the condescending belief that women can't be warriors. Joan of Arc also no doubt beat many men in combat.

"Champion" is just a pointless title given all living things can be killed by piercing their skin an letting them bleed out.

Not to mention the Sarmatian warrior women who would apparently cut off a breast just to make shooting their bow easier.

No one ever said women can't be warriors. It's been well demonstrated and documented here and elsewhere, however, that men at the top level have always defeated women at the top level in any competition, and especially so in physical sports and combat. This is not condescending, it's just human nature.

Trying to assume otherwise, or enforcing the false narrative that men and women are equal, leads to very unhappy individuals and societies.

[Roccandil]

Is the average human male physically stronger than the average female? Yes. Are there exceptional females who are physically stronger than the average male? Again, yes.

In my view, that's case closed. Kenshi is in large part about average people becoming exceptional, and exceptional individuals do tend to rise to the top.

Plus, Shek aren't human. Doesn't seem accurate to apply human physiology to them. For all we know, the average Shek female is stronger than the average Shek male.

[Chinsei]

I haven't bothered reading most of these posts after the first one or two.

But look up Boudica, an boom a warrior queen that bested many. So lets stop with the condescending belief that women can't be warriors. Joan of Arc also no doubt beat many men in combat.

"Champion" is just a pointless title given all living things can be killed by piercing their skin an letting them bleed out.

Not to mention the Sarmatian warrior women who would apparently cut off a breast just to make shooting their bow easier.

No one ever said women can't be warriors. It's been well demonstrated and documented here and elsewhere, however, that men at the top level have always defeated women at the top level in any competition, and especially so in physical sports and combat. This is not condescending, it's just human nature.

Trying to assume otherwise, or enforcing the false narrative that men and women are equal, leads to very unhappy individuals and societies.

there is no 'always'.

There are women who can and have over come males who were 'on the top' of the ladder .

theres more to fighting than physical prowess. All you have to be able to do to beat someone stronger is move faster and know where to strike.

And

Men and Women are 'equal' They may be physically different but women can be smarter , faster, and more decisive than men, just as men can be so to women.

I would also note that historically it was a "shameful" act for men to lose to women , so the odds of them recording times when women bested men in combat would be very few. both because Men usually wrote the stories we hear in history. and because it would be hard to get people to believe the story due to the preconception that you continue to show. in that women are "weaker" than men.

which isn't true.

and your wrong if you literally wanna use the term "Any competition".

Women have surpassed men to become Grandmasters in Chess.

There are women who have invented an discovered things in science that men attempted to learn an failed to.

some of the top record holders in the world in things like track , Soccer, and tennis are women.

there are women who are better pilots than men. there are women who have out performed men in Singing, and Dance competiions.

there are women who have out performed men in the business/financial side of the world.

"anything a man can do" , a woman is capable of doing. and vice versa.

But narrow minded people rarely change their minds. ^.^

after all people always need to look down on people. an be my guest. and obviously those of us who see equality are happier than you, other wise you wouldn't be trying to force your narrative an convince the game makers to change simply because they treat women 'equally'......in the game.