Game survey

[tkobo]

Dont think of it as solely wages,think of it as-
* their split of the plunder.
* their share of profits
* their living expenses

Its odd that we consider them all separate full people,ie like "main characters",yet they all lump their cash together....

As for charters,thats how business worked in feudal societies.The best known,is probably the British East India company,and it was established with a charter and it gave out contracts via charters.Wealth was of course power,and power had to be regulated by those in charge otherwise they wouldnt be in charge for long,so charters were used by those in power to control who could run businesses and gain wealth.

And of course its how those in power,gained wealth thru simply being in power.

[Blxz]

Unnecessary micro. I also feel that it interferes with the ability to roleplay the game 'my way'. Since Chris made a big deal about being able to do what you want and play it your way however that might be I find that forcing me to pay wages totally negates any chance of me roleplaying a bunch of close friends stuck in the desert trying to survive. Other sources of balancing should be looked at before being forced to give my plunder to some arbitrary recipient. If they were to take the money I would expect them to look after their own equipment as well.

Having said that, I don't think the idea of paid "employee's" is a bad idea. But having the 'main' core team as paid mercs is quite limiting....especially with the idea of perma-death meaning that your main guy could actually be gone in the first battle and your 'next' main guy will then be one of the so called mercs from before. The discontinuity is a bit jarring.

[Captain Deathbeard]

I will add employees that you pay a wage some day (mercs, miners, shopkeepers) as an alternative to slaves. But core player characters will always be rent-free. It just feels better that way.

I can control loot-income easily enough I think with the things mentioned. Tolls at key choke-points and bridges is a good idea too. Taxes I plan to have if you have businesses in a town, but I can't think of a convenient way of taxing wandering traders without it being a pain.

[toaster Assassin]

Chris said:but I can't think of a convenient way of taxing wandering traders without it being a pain.

I'm guessing the best way to it would be like the tolls (departure Point to destination point taxation, but not in between). There should be no taxation in the "untamed wilds" (Where there is no law,regulation,safety or fairness (Only Crazy Vasili!)) Perhaps the tax can be in addition to the toll through at established trade routes.

[Kamos]

A beaten path that resembles a road would be pretty good. If it had regular caravans and more importantly regular patrols it would encourage people to travel along the road(or raid it) and give encouragement to funnel people through toll areas. You could even place small forts alongside the roads that would charge tolls and maybe have them seek out traders that are in plain sight trying to circumvent them. These forts could be stocked with purchasable supplies like food or water for traders in trouble and offer escape points for traders being attacked by superior forces to offer more encouragement. Tolls exist for a reason, it's an exchange or services after all.

[UltimaVirus]

Taxes I plan to have if you have businesses in a town, but I can't think of a convenient way of taxing wandering traders without it being a pain.

Ideas:

1. Make the entrance to a city a 'zone' that instantly demands a "trading pass" worth 2-5% of their total carried trade-goods worth into the city. Alternatively, you can just charge them a flat fee. The pass is good for a single day (24 hours) and then disappears from your inventory (it would be a single squared note/token/whatever).

2. Tolls, as others have suggested, along popular and safer routes. Those who don't pay the toll pay the price with a much less safe path. Traders would most often choose the safer routes if they have the money at a 95+% chance. If they don't, they will take the unsafe routes or alternatively just go somewhere else.

3. Make all NPCs tagged as wondering traders take a percentage penalty on goods they sell. So if they sell a steel rod, while it would normally be 120% mark up, make it 115% mark up, you might be able to display it as 115% Value, [5% Tax] under the items trading info.

4. Simply don't tax wondering traders, assume or implement that every good purchased or sold at a city or other taxing province has a portion of it's value given to the city coffers.

[killerx243]

How I made Money:

My most recent game I made 20K by pure luck, a travelling merchant decided to help me fend off some bandits and was killed (I think -200+ blood makes someone dead) and got some armor and trade goods in his pack. Not to mention the bandit's junk that I sold (everything but the bandannas)

My Thoughts on Taxation (mostly economy):

I agree with UltimaVirus for taxation and Kamos for tolls, with the exception that smaller towns shouldn't take tolls and people being chased shouldn't get taxed (the guards would have a priority of killing the bandits then tax the guy), also if a character gets taxed he shouldn't get taxed again the same day by the same town for leaving and going back in.

If taxation is going in then that could open up other avenues for making money:

Each city would need a main building, like a town hall, where the Mayor (or whatever you want to call him) is. The Mayor could give you jobs and such and keeps track of the tax money in the town hall. You can pay the Mayor for escorts to another city as long as the two factions are not at war, price based on distance. The Mayor can't give you money the town doesn't have or needs for upkeep, wages and sending money to the nation (explained below). They won't give you an amount of money that will leave the town with nothing either. If the expenses are 500 and the town has 600 they might at most give you 50 - 60 for very important task (like saving his daughter or helping to defend the town from a siege (the nation would also give you some money for this as a thank you)

Now not knowing the plans for factions in the future this next part is based off of assumptions and wishes (mostly wishes ).

Some money would be taken from the towns and brought to the capital of the faction it is a part of. Then the capital simulates paying for stuff decreasing the amount of money they have so it can't be looted late game for 12 billion cats or something else ridiculous. More money the faction has the more troops they have, more troops they have the more upkeep they have. Higher upkeep means traders need to make more money, taxes need to be increased, or troops need to be disbanded. The capital would have a palace in it where the faction leader is and the factions wealth is stored.

The player could attack towns, the capital and the caravans delivering money from the towns however for towns they would need to break into a safe (can't be moved, takes some time to open) while fighting guards, larger cities it would have more guards and a vault with chests in it (takes longer to crack and need to pick the locks of the chests, break them open with brute force or even take them with you to deal with later (however they are heavy)) and finally the vault in the palace would be even better defended (more guards and possibly better/stronger guards, the vault has multiple safes and a few chests in it which after cracking the palace vault (longest to open) they then would need to open the safes and chests (or take them) (basically impossible to clean out the palace without heavy losses or having one safe cracker for every safe to have it done in a small amount of time)

While attacking the caravans would be the safest it wouldn't be as profitable as cleaning out the palace. The faction would see this as aggression though and kill you on sight or even send bounty hunters as mentioned earlier. The time it would take for them to forget about and what they might do to get even and get their money would be determined by the amount taken, the amount of people killed to get it and where it was taken from town being the shortest time and lowest penalty and capital being the longest and highest. However in the case of caravans it would be slightly less then the place it was sent from because less people would be killed.

To prevent people from only looting towns and only having those consequences the effects are added exponentially. So if you attack one town they might attack you on sight, attack a city and they would send bounty hunters after you, attacking the palace might make them send bounty hunters and their own troops to track you down. But lets say you attack two towns, they send bounty hunters and attack on sight for longer (I'm having difficulty explaining the idea) but basically if they are sending things after you they will not stop until you are either caught, or they are ordered to stop (they will not stop attacking during a fight or if they have spotted you and are engaging and running that factions town or toll station would have the guards help the fellow faction members or bounty hunters their leader send attacking you).

While making a bunch of money from looting the palace might seem counterproductive to the thread, the negative impacts from using the new source of income would limit it's usefulness (in a sense that it would be extremely difficult to pull off with 100% success (getting all the money) without losing people or angering an entire faction (not only have you killed their people and taken their money but you have also made them look weak)) while giving players more options to be evil

[aattss]

Anyone else find trading passes and tokens a headache?

[toaster Assassin]

Wouldn't the climbing skill enable the player to bypass any tolls/fees at the main gate?

[Kamos]

I find climbing with a load of trade goods unlikely. Perhaps if there is a encumbrance mechanic later on they could tie in together.

[UltimaVirus]

Anyone else find trading passes and tokens a headache?

It is kind of a headache , isn't it? Hmm...

[Blxz]

Anyone else find trading passes and tokens a headache?

It is kind of a headache , isn't it? Hmm...

Total pain in the arse. I would much prefer things to spend money on rather than ways to take money away from you. Feel free to make buildings insanely expensive if need be but this is better than having to lose money for what seem like arbitrary reasons.

Also, more gradiated levels of equipment is a start. As things are now there is very little reason to buy anything other than the best of the best; the cost difference between a decent midrange weapon and the top level weapons. 9 times out of 10 the player is better off saving for a little longer for great quality stuff than they are at buying something midrange to use until something better comes along.

I like the way Gothic implements things. (If anyone has actually played it). Things that you can buy are there to see, nothing is level locked. But the costs range from 200-1000 gold for low level equipment up to 50-70K for the top level things. There is no sane way to save up doing low level things and you are much better off on buying better equipment in order to take on better sources of income in a climbing spiral. This would (in my opinion) solve ANY money issues. As long as there are better things to spend money on then there is never a money problem.


EDIT: Thinking about this some more. I can see a problem in that high level equipment is then far too valuable if the player makes it in order to sell it. This can be fixed either by limiting player sell value (which is probably not good), charging high prices for running a shop or by instead just putting higher costs into building and upgrading and research instead.

[Dimler]

I can understand why people wouldn't like tolls or whatever for towns, but you guys aren't thinking this all the way through. for one it adds to the realism. for two if towns can charge tolls and taxes, than when you have towns of your own you can charge tolls and taxes. than it goes from you losing money to you gaining money. you wouldn't have to pay a toll to enter a town you own (for obvious reasons) or a town you own one or more buildings in because they are already getting that money from you in taxes. and lets face it, if you plan on having an army you are going to need money. and don't say "well I'll just make everything my army needs with crafting" because for the economy to work and be useful the towns can't be 100% self sufficient.

[Lorenzo666]

I can understand why people wouldn't like tolls or whatever for towns, but you guys aren't thinking this all the way through. for one it adds to the realism. for two if towns can charge tolls and taxes, than when you have towns of your own you can charge tolls and taxes. than it goes from you losing money to you gaining money. you wouldn't have to pay a toll to enter a town you own (for obvious reasons) or a town you own one or more buildings in because they are already getting that money from you in taxes. and lets face it, if you plan on having an army you are going to need money. and don't say "well I'll just make everything my army needs with crafting" because for the economy to work and be useful the towns can't be 100% self sufficient.

Exactly, they still need to buy materials and supplies and where else are they going to get the money from?

It would be nice if just for now to implement tolls for entering towns and/or maybe Food and Water that your team needs to consume which you can scavenge off enemies or buy. Maybe in the we could have the risk of Scurvy or other diseases.....

[The Biolizard]

I need to balance building costs, but I also need to think about balancing money in general and I need to know how its working out so far.
Specifically, I want to hear from players who have made tons of money in-game, and how did you earn it (eg trading, looting, killing traders..) and how long were you playing, how much time and effort did you put in to making that money.
What are your opinions on the various ways of making money so far, and how it is balanced? Is trading too powerful? Or useless compared to something else? Do you think certain things are too expensive or too cheap? How much do you think a small building should cost?

I made my money off of killing then selling the weapons because they stack easy. I think it would be too much of a hassle to trade and sell to make money. It is much easier just to lure enemies to a city and fight with the army there, so dying is at a minimal risk. Once you get good enough, recruit a friend, get him good enough and repeat until there is like five great warriors going around killing a looting everything in sight. That is how I make my Kats. It did take a while though. A few hours at least to get myself and a few others fighting well. But the effort is very low. I think at the beginning everything is well balanced money-wise but after you start looting army soldiers, your Kats stack up quickly. I can't really say how much buildings should cost but If it was up to me, I'd make them very expensive, so you have a goal in mind the entire game.

[1337]

I'd make them very expensive, so you have a goal in mind the entire game.

The goal of the game shouldn't be to get one building. Using buildings is gonna be a major feature throughout the game, not the end.

[Blxz]

I'd make them very expensive, so you have a goal in mind the entire game.

The goal of the game shouldn't be to get one building. Using buildings is gonna be a major feature throughout the game, not the end.

Perhaps some sort of mid-game goal then. Of course we haven't play-tested it so no one can really make any judgements on it yet but I think that 10K for a simple building is still very cheap. Unless there are a lot of money sinks in terms of upgrades I can't really see anything stopping someone from buying out a whole town quite easily. 10K really doesn't require much in the way of saving at all.

[aattss]

I'd make them very expensive, so you have a goal in mind the entire game.

The goal of the game shouldn't be to get one building. Using buildings is gonna be a major feature throughout the game, not the end.

Perhaps some sort of mid-game goal then. Of course we haven't play-tested it so no one can really make any judgements on it yet but I think that 10K for a simple building is still very cheap. Unless there are a lot of money sinks in terms of upgrades I can't really see anything stopping someone from buying out a whole town quite easily. 10K really doesn't require much in the way of saving at all.

The thing is that you're paying 10k for a shack that doesn't do anything, and then you pay extras for other things. It's like the game on your iTouch that's free, but you have to spend a load of money for fun parts.

[toaster Assassin]

Not to mention the fact that a player with a big army would have to spend more on the infrastructure, A small shack can act as a basic way-station/safe-house, but would not be an effective stronghold for an army.

[Kaeroku]

Then what we need is to figure out the exact cause of that tipping point.
Maybe its when you get strong and start looting vast amounts from dead traders or whole army squads?

For me, it's the game itself actually. There's a point where the bandits fighting the guards results in enough bodies just lying around where I can loot high value items and sell them. Usually my first purchase is a Large Backpack and a follower to improve what I can carry then I just lure hostiles to friendlies and let them kill each other (getting in hits to train as much as possible until I can do it on my own.)

2-3 hours of game time and I have more money than I can use.

Regarding pricing... real-world (and this game is billed as being fairly realistic in it's mechanics) a high-quality weapon (sword) can cost as much as a low-end car, and a low-end (new) car is about 5-20% the cost of a small house @ 100,000$ (say 15%). Low-end swords go for 20-50$, mid end swords 200-2000$ (USD), so roughy 1(low)-15(high)% the cost of a very high-end weapon. Obviously when talking about 15% of a small house (100,000$ USD), there's still room for variance - 13,500 - 16,500$ probably for high end weapons, maybe even significantly more if you start talking about the masterpiece of a Master's work (legends, etc... not sure if that has a place here.)

Regarding making low level crafting and business accessible... have you considered subsidising it through game mechanics? Say for instance... there will be other miners / crafters in the world, maybe offer an apprenticeship (quest line perhaps? or class-based, if you introduce classes) to a trade which helps you both earn skill in the trade to start out as well as get a starting sum of money for the business. If you introduce random events, on game creation a random event could be that the owner decides to step down and let you take over the shop after your apprenticeship (say at a certain skill level?) which effectively hands you a business, but in exchange for an investment of labor and "building wealth" by improving the business.

I don't know if this is something you'd like to do or have considered, but it seems a solution which allows you to make the cost-model accessible without screwing with the rest of the game economy.