Firearms?

[iSuck345]

Guns still shouldn't be in the game. When Kenshi was made, I was sure that all John could think of was of epic samurai sword fights supported by harpoon guns, longbows and crossbows, not just some cheap gunpowder guns that made everything obsolete except newly-made "gentlemen" swords.

[EtherealNodachi]

Guns still shouldn't be in the game. When Kenshi was made, I was sure that all John could think of was of epic samurai sword fights supported by harpoon guns, longbows and crossbows, not just some cheap gunpowder guns that made everything obsolete except newly-made "gentlemen" swords.

Gentlemen swords would be made obsolete too...

[Scotterius]

And as far as air guns go, they look like they'd still cause some pretty heart-wrenching deaths.

They are cool though, arent they? Yeah, as I read some of the more intelligent posts here I have grown to change my mind about gun powder and Kenshi. It is nice, but it's mere inclusion would turn off some gamers just flat out. The air guns are a better solution. They have all the disadvantages of virtual gunpowder ones, but with less power. This way they would be a less powerful, highly technical weapon that you could train people in easily, or it could be a stepping off point for a hand held harpoon gun (the ww2 one looks almost perfect for that). This would allow a long bow to still remain the top tier weapon, as long as you have the training to master it.

You are right though, they are still poweful. In comparison, a long bow has a velocity of about half that, but arrows weigh more and have some advantages.

Here is a picture of a Japanese air gun.



Oh, and keep in mind that any weapon kills in Kenshi. Kenshi does have perma-death but not insta-death. There is always that bleed out time. A field cannon would not kill you any faster than a crossbow.

[Blxz]

When Kenshi was made, I was sure that all John could think of was of epic samurai sword fights

Who? Do you mean Chris, the developer?

[EtherealNodachi]

When Kenshi was made, I was sure that all John could think of was of epic samurai sword fights

Who? Do you mean Chris, the developer?

No, I think he meant John, the Dark Lord of Amazing Beards, Where Chris got his amazing beard.

[chubchubrecon]

Personally the lack of gunpowder in the game makes sense to me, if you think about it where are you going to find a resource like that in a great desert? It requires charcoal, which if I'm not mistaken is made of wood, you know, that thing deserts have very little of, trees. On top of that it also requires saltpeter which i could see feasibly being found in the desert, and sulfur which I also think could possibly be found in mines in said desert.

I would say that you could make an argument both ways honestly, but I don't understand personally why a post Apoc society would resort to using ancient firearms, when they could just as easily produce poorly made firearms with the bits of rusted metal they seem to have so much of. But modern firearms would imbalance the game, so why don't we scrap the firearms, say gunpowder is unattainable and then add some modern twists to the bows and x-bows and swords to match the pretty cybernetic replacement limbs?

Compound bows, crossbows with bolt clips and scopes, late game mechanised swords with moving blades?!

But crossbows that can shoot more then 1 bolt per 4 seconds would be kinda overpowered huh, seeing as bolts do a pretty severe bit of damage... well the answer is simple my friends, we need shields! Big, hulking, metal, shields.

Think about the extra combat dynamic, ranged weapon users and big hefty warriors with shields. It would be almost enough to allow for class specification now wouldn't it!

[EtherealNodachi]

Looking at the way the game is going, I think spears are a good way to go, too. If shields are included (they may or may not be, Samurai did not use them, and that's a heavy influence on this game) then spears would presumably be another thing to add, plus, Yari spears and Naginata polearms were both common in Edo-era Japan.

[DrSalvador]

i think, personally, that close-up swordplay is what makes the game what it is, visceral action. i think it would kinda remove something from the game to have ranged weapons honestly, you could have one dude run up and distract the enemies while all your other dudes rain arrows on them, which would be too easy. Well, based on the current AI, that is. But if bows and crossbows are added i think they should be somewhat nerfed or take a long time to learn.

[Santaissick]

Personally the lack of gunpowder in the game makes sense to me, if you think about it where are you going to find a resource like that in a great desert? It requires charcoal, which if I'm not mistaken is made of wood, you know, that thing deserts have very little of, trees.

It is very widely made mistake to think Kenshi is only about desert. (Have made it myself ) There will be vegetation and there will be other biomes than desert. They just haven't been implemented yet. Meaning... There will be trees, maybe forest, (possibly rain forest?), water.... Maybe sakura trees (or what ever the real name for them is) due to the influence from samurai and stuff.

[EDIT]
Found this from Game Design:

The game is not finished yet. I don't have time to make it pretty when I'm working on core mechanics. When I finally hire an artist, I'll get him to fix everything up real nice. The terrain will be varied, and full of scrub, grasslands, rocks, dead trees, water, and all sorts of nice things.

[iSuck345]

Sorry I don't really remember the developer's name, I struggle but I never remember. Anyways, I find no guns of ANY kind more amazing, epic and realistic.

[DrSalvador]

Well, iSuck, the game is about variety and choice, is it not?
I think if guns were ever to be implemented, they should be a hassle and/or a pain to use, either by being slow, inaccurate, or both. I certainly wouldn't mind only having swords, but to quickly write them off as a bad thing. I do think bows/crossbows may make a good addition, but that is something that would have to be seen before a judgement can be accurately made.

[jtgibson]

Going based on what the Kenshi world looks like, it seems to me like it's an "alternate history"/"post apocalyptic colony world" where high-explosives and high-temperature combustion either haven't been invented or are in such short supply as to be unfeasible -- even though electrical power may be available. Take sulfur out of the equation and the world has no gunpowder to speak of, since it sucks all of the moisture (whatever little there is) right out of the arid air. Make potassium hard to gain in quantity and nitrile bombs become difficult or impossible to make, other than what limited amounts you can scrounge up from waste.

While I'm not in general opposed to firearms in games like these (I adored Mount & Blade: Band of Warriors Expanded for its firearms), I think the emphasis is definitely on bows, spring harpoons, and throwing weapons.

[Boonjagga]

The main problem with guns right now for me isn't the gameplay element in terms of damage, but it's how you can justify them in the game right now alongside it. From the artside of things I believe it's safe to say that so far what we know is that windmills will supply a lot of the power for structures in the game. The architecture at the current moment seems to be of stone (concrete?) and metal. The doors for the outposts also look to be electronically powered, or at least they open and close by themselves. Combined with the fact that people obviously have the technology to smith weapons and armor, robotic limbs are planned, and mines and other structures are also planned the only reason firearms wouldn't be invented is that no inventor happened to think of a "metal shooting kill machine."

With all this in mind there's no reason for guns to be anything less then automatic assault rifles unless you're more then willing to suspend that disbelief. I understand that it's always hard to develop a world that immerses its players but it's probably going to be a lot harder then people think to have a world that is convincing, has both firearms and swords, and has balanced gameplay unless guns are strictly regulated somehow through finances or through a sheer drawback in using them. In regards to what level of "complexity" firearms are going to be in the game it's hard to justify having them limited with what we know of the coming level of technology that's currently planned. I'm not against them, but there's going to have to be some serious thought put in if they're going to work.

[iSuck345]

If there are gonna be guns, then why don't we add dinossaurs, dragons and aliens too? :I

[Blxz]

If there are gonna be guns, then why don't we add dinossaurs, dragons and aliens too? :I

None of this makes sense. Guns are in no way related to the other 3 things.

[Cat_Fuzz]

With all this in mind there's no reason for guns to be anything less then automatic assault rifles unless you're more then willing to suspend that disbelief. I understand that it's always hard to develop a world that immerses its players but it's probably going to be a lot harder then people think to have a world that is convincing, has both firearms and swords, and has balanced gameplay unless guns are strictly regulated somehow through finances or through a sheer drawback in using them. In regards to what level of "complexity" firearms are going to be in the game it's hard to justify having them limited with what we know of the coming level of technology that's currently planned. I'm not against them, but there's going to have to be some serious thought put in if they're going to work.

I think this pretty much sums up the thread until we get a go-ahead on whether they are included or not.

[jtgibson]

Pretty much everything Boonjagga said summarises it nicely.

I suppose there is *one* way to reconcile the idea of firearms in the game, and that is to retain what I mentioned: that sulfur is nearly non-existent. Without that to desiccate the gunpowder, gunpowder becomes a rare and precious commodity that must be carefully kept in special sealed vessels -- no mere brass shell covered with wax will do, with their limited metallurgical technology! The only way to keep the gunpowder from being saturated is to seal it in special airtight containers (e.g., glass lined, rubber sealed, etc.). This would likely indicate that the maximum class of weapon would be... a muzzle loader. Which plays right into a lot of the eastern-themed firearm ideas on this thread.

There's a certain thing that needs to be said, however, which is: Chris is very obviously leaning towards having no guns. Again as Boonjagga said, I'm pretty sure this alternate history/post-apocalyptic world hasn't even conceived of the notion of a gunpowder-based weapon -- possibly because anything that fulminates faster than wood is chemically unavailable, or possibly because they simply haven't conceived of it because the individual ingredients are too few and far between.

[Scotterius]

I suppose there is *one* way to reconcile the idea of firearms in the game, and that is to retain what I mentioned: that sulfur is nearly non-existent...

This sounds feasable. Before the petroleum industry, sulfur was mined...so sure maybe deposits are rare. Even if it wasnt more rare, it would likely be the hardest to obtain. Potassium nitrate can be obtained using pee and straw, but it still might be a limiting factor. I think paper wrapped cartridges are a good idea. I agree that having hand crafted tooling to be state of the art is one of the charms of the post Apocalypse. A worse problem about gunpowder is that putting the material in a piece of ceramic makes a weapon capable of destroying your whole squad. By avoiding the existence of gunpowder altogether, you no longer have to explain it absence.

Air guns are plenty powerful to replace firearms in every way.

I would say that you could make an argument both ways honestly, but I don't understand personally why a post Apoc society would resort to using ancient firearms, when they could just as easily produce poorly made firearms with the bits of rusted metal they seem to have so much of.

Technology that we know of today is supported by skilled labor. I could not sit down and paint a mona lisa, in the same way I could not create and operate machines that manufacture shell casings. When the population is reduced it is this area (skilled laborers) that determine technological collapse. When this happens objects that are easier to maintain survive and objects that are complicated, break down and can not be replaced. Knowledge expanders (scientists, inventors) are useful for extending technology, but I think it is skilled labor that holds the line.

For example: I can make a bow and arrow. I can draw out a design for a matchlock but I cant drill the barrel. A flint lock is already beyond my ability to even explain. So while I know how theoretically to make gun powder and a matchlock, my technology level would be at a primitive bow.

[stop66]

I'll make it clear.I hate firearms.
I usually played Mount & Blade and when they put firearms in the game i left.
If you make a game with swords and a dude come with a gun and fuck your character with one shot, in that case, everybody use firearms and swords convert into useless metal ... no thanks you.
Perhaps bows for range weapons would be factible but in that case you are changing the game mechanic.
I vote for a moderate or null use of ranged weapons.

Regards.

[Kamos]

Well ranged weapons are confirmed just not firearms. Think it's bows and thing like scorpion turrets or harpoon launchers.