Sexual dimorphism

[BorianM]

The idea comes to me after reading the article about use of women in modern Izraeli army. It gives all the modern statistics on the wide use of females in armed forces and results and differences of their complexion and phisiology. It is well known than for humanbeings sexes are different. Unfortunately for most computer games it is not realised and male and female characters has equal stats, skills etc.
My idea is to make different sexes in the game a little different like it is in real life. For example for Greenlanders males are a little stronger, run faster, can carry more and better in labour and building but females have more dexterity and touchness, lower bleeding rate, and are better in farming and cooking. For Scorchlanders and Shrek it could be also possible based on the common sense mostly. Of course or Hivers and Skeletons it wil not work.

Specially for gender activists - I do not mean that one sex is better than another but that they are naturally diferent because of the evolution { or Creation fo those twho believe}.

[Sol Lignum]

I suggest you alter the content of your post fast, or else you will be attacked by various equalists (if it's even a word!) and sexists

Seriously though, i think that except obvious diffirences between men and women, they're still more or less phisically equal in everything else, and if given same training, could achieve similar results.

I'm not familiar with Israel military researches though, but i don't assert anything either.

[Chinsei]

The idea comes to me after reading the article about use of women in modern Izraeli army. It gives all the modern statistics on the wide use of females in armed forces and results and differences of their complexion and phisiology. It is well known than for humanbeings sexes are different. Unfortunately for most computer games it is not realised and male and female characters has equal stats, skills etc.
My idea is to make different sexes in the game a little different like it is in real life. For example for Greenlanders males are a little stronger, run faster, can carry more and better in labour and building but females have more dexterity and touchness, lower bleeding rate, and are better in farming and cooking. For Scorchlanders and Shrek it could be also possible based on the common sense mostly. Of course or Hivers and Skeletons it wil not work.

Specially for gender activists - I do not mean that one sex is better than another but that they are naturally diferent because of the evolution { or Creation fo those twho believe}.

run faster? On average women are smaller , and men are bulkier. they tend to be able to move faster than men. sure men are potentially stronger.

but Women can train themselves to lift just as much as men.

At last check i didn't know your genitals inherently made you better at cooking or that your genitals effect how well you learn and know botany, an in general Agriculture.

While i do think there should be more distiction between Males and Females. i don't think your gender effects all that much.

your physical structure might. but your gender doesn't for example a woman with large breasts might find it difficult to run quickly, walk long periods of time. an struggle to swing a sword.

but a woman with small breasts might not have any problems with those things.

Same with a male being over weight an not having much arm, or leg mass.

might be weaker an slower than women. an not be able to function as well.

Your gender shouldn't give you inherent bonuses. your body design/type should.

[Gauthier Henrio]

"It is well known than for humanbeings sexes are different. "

It's one thing saying that, it's another defining how different they actually are.

For instance, as Chinset pointed out :"At last check i didn't know your genitals inherently made you better at cooking or that your genitals effect how well you learn and know botany, an in general Agriculture."

I'm by no means a natural scientist who's specialised in human biology but I don't think that man and female brains differ so much that women can learn specific skills significantly better. Again, men and women differ, but a lot of the differences that we see in societies, or so I would argue, are cultural, not natural (even though these cultural differences might have very well been influenced by our natural differences).

If your beliefs don't fit the evidence, it's probably a good idea to challenge them. What I mean but that is that it seems to me that you believe ALL female in ALL species to be physically "weaker." Again, from what I know, the praying mantis is one of many species in which the female has the physical edge. Going off that, there's no differences in terms of physical skills between male and female Sheks.

Chinsel said "but Women can train themselves to lift just as much as men."

In terms of top physical performance, it appears, strictly from what I know, that men do have the edge. It's not because a woman can train herself to lift as much as a man that they spent as much time training. For most men, an equal number of hours spent training will yield higher results than for most women. That's one of the reasons why male athletes are at the top of the leaderboard in terms of performances in the "raw" sports.

Now, based on what I remember from what Chris said when I was working on the Shek lore, there's not going to be any difference in the game between human men and women in terms of stats and skills.

"Specially for gender activists - I do not mean that one sex is better than another but that they are naturally diferent because of the evolution { or Creation fo those twho believe}."

Many Feminists aren't just trying to challenge the idea that one sex is better than the other, they're also trying to dismantle beliefs based around what the actual differences between the two sexes are. Unfounded sexism isn't necessarily(I'd even go as far as arguing it very, very, rarely is) a conscious process. Regarding sexism, in my opinion, people, both men and women, act based on what they believe to be natural differences. Yet these differences might so be so natural once you start deconstructing them. I reaaaaly doubt women "naturally" like pink and men "naturally" like blue, especially given that these differences differ from society to society.

[Kazuya]

Seriously though, i think that except obvious diffirences between men and women, they're still more or less phisically equal in everything else, and if given same training, could achieve similar results.

No, they don't.

There is a very simple reason why women don't compete with men in olympic disciplines like weightlifting or running. The top female weightlifter in the 2016 summer olympics was Meng Supin. She lifted combined 307 kg at a bodyweight of 120 kg. If she had competed with the men, she would have been last. In fact she would have been last in almost every weight class below her. She would have been competitive only in the two lowest weight classes of the men (That's bodyweight 56 kg and 62 kg).

The national womens football team of Germany won the gold medal during the olympics. They also won the world cup twice and the european cup six times. They are one of the best teams in the world. They played with all their top players against a B-youth (age 14 to 16) team of VfB Stuttgart. They lost 3:0.
The australian womens team is currently rank 5th in the world. They lost 7:0 to a boys team.
source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... rm-up.html

[BorianM]

Seriously though, i think that except obvious diffirences between men and women, they're still more or less phisically equal in everything else, and if given same training, could achieve similar results.

No, they don't.

Agreed. Men and women are different because of different evolution. So both sexes have advantages and desadvantages

[Sol Lignum]

I bet that if you'll grab a girl of, say, 175 cm high, 60 kilo heavy, and a boy of the same stats, with similar bone, muscle and body-fat mass, if both will have same background, and if both will be given a same training, i bet they'd achieve similar results in a given discipline by the end of the test period. Also Olympics are as far from true sports these days as Kenshi is far from a racing game.

But, that's not the point. Point is - if male and female characters in Kenshi would be made initially unequal, even if balanced, Lo-Fi would brobably go bankrupt a while ago, because of all the lawsuits on digital genders inequality what'd be thrown on them. Since feminists has nothing better to do anyway.

[BorianM]

I bet that if you'll grab a girl of, say, 175 cm high, 60 kilo heavy, and a boy of the same stats, with similar bone, muscle and body-fat mass, if both will have same background, and if both will be given a same training, i bet they'd achieve similar results in a given discipline by the end of the test period. Also Olympics are as far from true sports these days as Kenshi is far from a racing game.

But, that's not the point. Point is - if male and female characters in Kenshi would be made initially unequal, even if balanced, Lo-Fi would brobably go bankrupt a while ago, because of all the lawsuits on digital genders inequality what'd be thrown on them. Since feminists has nothing better to do anyway.

I can not agree about first part - even with same starting conditions as described and the same training and background male and female will be not the same in bone, muscle and body-fat mass. So girl's bones will be 25% more fragile, muscules less powerfull and body-fat ratio higher. But the girl will have some other advantages...

But I understand the second part and agree that it can cause some probems on lawsuits on digital genders inequality so it is better to do just an unofficial mod made by the person who live in a normal traditional country

[Hatsune_Neko]

I can not agree about first part - even with same starting conditions as described and the same training and background male and female will be not the same in bone, muscle and body-fat mass. So girl's bones will be 25% more fragile, muscules less powerfull and body-fat ratio higher. But the girl will have some other advantages...

wrong on the bones, it's the same strength as with males, but some parts are shaped differently due to the nature of childbirth.. musculature though is different. but not by much.

But I understand the second part and agree that it can cause some probems on lawsuits on digital genders inequality so it is better to do just an unofficial mod made by the person who live in a normal traditional country

that is a very loaded statement. your normal is another's oddity.

[Tarragon Rill]

while I agree that there is some truth to this I think that the idea is better applied like this....

Males may start with a bonus of say 3 to 5 in STR where a woman may start with a bonus of 3 to 5 in DEX or something like this. thus they might vary a bit in the beginning, but if you train them they can all become equal. this can make a starting unit very different but over time the difference will become meaningless as they train and "level up". this of course assumes that leveling up will be slow enough to make this noticeable. if you get your new characters and they all have a strength of 30 in a an hour. then the difference of the male at 33 and the female at 31 is negligible. but if it takes you several real world days to get your characters to level up their stats this could then be a big deal. as you need to balance my strong male can carry more so give him the big backpack, but this in turn hinders his combat so his higher strength bonus to damage is wasted as his combat is impeded from the heavy backpack. to this end you could also say that what ever stats you make them have a bonus either positive, or negative on their starting stats. you could also impose a similar bonus to their XP earned on those stats so not only does a female start with say 5 points less of STR, she will also gain STR half as fast. Yet indeed she can train her STR to be just as high as a male in the end.


But... anybody who says a female can train to be "just as strong as a male" is really just being PC. as if you take very dedicated body builders the men will always be stronger. look at body building competitions now. the top female body builders in the world can't compare to the top men. sure ANY female body builder will be stronger than 90% of men alive. but they will in reality never be as strong as a man who works just as hard to train. so ya call me a sexist, but this is true. it is also true women on average have a higher pain tolerance (toughness in kenshi?) than men do. women on average have higher dexterity than men, etc. Sure most of this is imposed by society as in women are taught to be more graceful (DEX). But no matter how you look at it there are differences. these may be inherent genetically controlled traits like Strength, or societal imposed traits like grace. further not all people are capable of training their various "stats" to be equal. some things can never be over come. the genetics of both men and women will dictate their "max score in all their stats" and you will find a woman who's genetics dictates her max STR is higher than some males. Thus if she chose to do so, she could train it up higher than these men. but what we are talking about is averages. So do you model in averages in your game, or just ignore it. the question is how a game designer deals with these various inequalities, and how much effort they want to put into it. the only question that remain is does a game designer who wants to implement some sort of this idea tell the politically correct faction to deal with it?

an exibit of this:
http://rawpowerlifting.com/wp-content/u ... ecords.pdf

http://rawpowerlifting.com/wp-content/u ... ecords.pdf






however all the arguments of sexual equality aside, what I very much want to see is the expansion of gender roles in AI and dialog etc.

what I mean to this is if I want a slaver that will only enslave males. I would want an AI callout that will say "ya, grab and enslave a victim, but only if male." or other such decisions. there is some of this in the AI and dialog editor now, I would just like to see it expanded on.

[Hatsune_Neko]

that's not to bad.
i for one usually recruit females for my game so would be an interesting option to call out for gender.

[Chinsei]

while I agree that there is some truth to this I think that the idea is better applied like this....

Males may start with a bonus of say 3 to 5 in STR where a woman may start with a bonus of 3 to 5 in DEX or something like this. thus they might vary a bit in the beginning, but if you train them they can all become equal. this can make a starting unit very different but over time the difference will become meaningless as they train and "level up". this of course assumes that leveling up will be slow enough to make this noticeable. if you get your new characters and they all have a strength of 30 in a an hour. then the difference of the male at 33 and the female at 31 is negligible. but if it takes you several real world days to get your characters to level up their stats this could then be a big deal. as you need to balance my strong male can carry more so give him the big backpack, but this in turn hinders his combat so his higher strength bonus to damage is wasted as his combat is impeded from the heavy backpack. to this end you could also say that what ever stats you make them have a bonus either positive, or negative on their starting stats. you could also impose a similar bonus to their XP earned on those stats so not only does a female start with say 5 points less of STR, she will also gain STR half as fast. Yet indeed she can train her STR to be just as high as a male in the end.


But... anybody who says a female can train to be "just as strong as a male" is really just being PC. as if you take very dedicated body builders the men will always be stronger. look at body building competitions now. the top female body builders in the world can't compare to the top men. sure ANY female body builder will be stronger than 90% of men alive. but they will in reality never be as strong as a man who works just as hard to train. so ya call me a sexist, but this is true. it is also true women on average have a higher pain tolerance (toughness in kenshi?) than men do. women on average have higher dexterity than men, etc. Sure most of this is imposed by society as in women are taught to be more graceful (DEX). But no matter how you look at it there are differences. these may be inherent genetically controlled traits like Strength, or societal imposed traits like grace. further not all people are capable of training their various "stats" to be equal. some things can never be over come. the genetics of both men and women will dictate their "max score in all their stats" and you will find a woman who's genetics dictates her max STR is higher than some males. Thus if she chose to do so, she could train it up higher than these men. but what we are talking about is averages. So do you model in averages in your game, or just ignore it. the question is how a game designer deals with these various inequalities, and how much effort they want to put into it. the only question that remain is does a game designer who wants to implement some sort of this idea tell the politically correct faction to deal with it?

an exibit of this:
http://rawpowerlifting.com/wp-content/u ... ecords.pdf

http://rawpowerlifting.com/wp-content/u ... ecords.pdf






however all the arguments of sexual equality aside, what I very much want to see is the expansion of gender roles in AI and dialog etc.

what I mean to this is if I want a slaver that will only enslave males. I would want an AI callout that will say "ya, grab and enslave a victim, but only if male." or other such decisions. there is some of this in the AI and dialog editor now, I would just like to see it expanded on.

Except, on average that most female body builders are smaller than the men. Height wise. and general starting weight.

However women who are equal to men in size and weight at the start could still over come, an out perform their male counter part.

Women on average my be smaller than males but proportionally they're just as strong.

[Tarragon Rill]

Sorry for the late reply here...

But in answer to the this... you have hit the nail on the head exactly. and then missed the point entirely both in the same post.

Men are on average bigger than women. Thus they are on average stronger as seen by looking at the top weight classes in those world record score. the women's chart does not even have the weight classes that go as high as the men. the reason is because there are no women body builders that are that big, and thus that strong. Hammering home that nail that men on average are bigger and stronger. that was my point exactly.

however you missed it on the other counter point. if you compare men and women in the same weight class it is still true that the men usually out perform the women of equal weight. However as I said this is comparing dedicated body builders to each other those that have spent their lives at this. where as in the rest of the world you will easily find cases of women that are stronger than men, this is not even hard to do. walk outside to your local mall and look around you will see it in your face over and over again. you will find many women that are stronger than the man next to them. the question was never are ALL men stronger just if at the peak of the human build can a woman hope to beat a man in sheer strength. and that is a resounding no. but again this is a very small percent of the population, and thus in a game it is sort of pointless. therefore I say any woman may indeed be allowed to progress as far as a man in physical strength even if in the beginning she was starting at a lesser value. but this is purely a philosophical discussion as 1) it is not up to us what the game designers do in their games for the most part. and 2) there is no correct answer. you either go with averages and women lag behind in strength or you go with maximums and make them equal. there is no right answer and I think both have their merits.

and lest we get sidetracked here and forget this is talking about physical strength only and had no bearing on other game stats like intelligence etc. I in no way imply men are smarter or healthier or what ever other game stat you want to come up with. this is limited to physical size and strength and to some degree other areas like pain tolerance where on average the female usually comes out on top. so not saying in any way that men are superior beings, but just pointing out that there are indeed physical differences that cannot be ignored in favor political correctness.

[rhazik]

Well I think this is a fantastic way not have this added to the game, lol. Since we're all throwing 2 cents in though I figured I'd throw mine in. I feel that the point about men having much higher muscle and bone density than a female has been adequately argued. I figured I'd rail on about the advantages women have over men.

So it is true that men have more muscle mass per pound than women. This is why a man, theoretically, can outperform a woman of the same weight. However, this comes at a cost. A man must consume approximately 50% more food than what a female needs to accomplish similar tasks. So your male characters with higher strength will need to find food more often.

Now men are comprised of the X & Y chromosomes. Women of course are X & X. This presents all sorts of problems for men. The Y chromosome is a very weak, but very necessary chromosome. Men typically get cancer or some other lovely disease when they work around RF energy, and can only have girls. This is because they obliterate the fragile Y chromosome with the radiation when working around high energy RF equipment. Also men's vision is typically worse than women. Approximately 20% of all men are color blind and only around 3-5% of all women are color blind. This is because sight is determined by the X chromosome, so women basically have a backup evolutionary 'choice.'

Women typically have better immune systems than men. This because they must share their immunity with a fetus. So on average they typically have at least 50% more white blood cells than men. Hence, the 'man cold.' This is why men appear to go down harder when sick than women, it's because they actually do. NASA has also documented that women appear to be the best fit for space exploration due to the fact that they are much more genetically and internally hardier than men. They also consume far less food, so that is much less for them to send.

Cheers!

[philthymcnasty]

I believe we should wait for the lore to finish first.

Are these people human?

Sure they look human, but are they really? For all we know they could be some sort of hyper advanced, carbon powered robots that can sexually reproduce.

Perhaps they where created as a means to bypass the "first extinction"?

[Tolwrath]

I suggest you alter the content of your post fast, or else you will be attacked by various equalists (if it's even a word!) and sexists

To get off topic for a moment, you're "right", equalist isn't a word. You're thinking of Egalitarianism, or "favoring equality of all". The Feminist movement is indeed an Egalitarian movement, though its title is poorly chosen. The word Feminism means a chain of thought wherein women have the dominant societal power. This is a fallacy, as one would certainly not make a movement for equal rights between men and women, and call it "Chauvanism".

However, do not let the name "Feminism" deter you from their cause of Egalitarianism. It is a movement dedicated to equal rights. The reason it was called "Feminism" at all is because "Egalitarianism" typically doesn't do well in legislative branches of government. Instead, legislative branches frequently prefer writing much narrower laws/movements fighting for power for specific groups of people. IE in the era of the 60s and 70s (how crazy is it that 20 years ago the correct grammar for that would be "60's and 70's"?) the movement was referred to as Feminism to show who, specifically, the group was trying to bring up to equal power.

I'm certain many of you will note the recent "Gay Rights" movement. This movement was unfortunately* much better named than the Feminist movement, as its name implies that it seeks equal rights for its constituants. Sadly, it is also true that many people argue against the Feminist movement on the basis of name itself. To these people I must say it is important to remember their cause, not just their name. Many things are poorly labeled, but actually quite enticing once their labels are torn away, for example: all of Peter Molyneux's work are better (save Curiosity – What's Inside the Cube?) when you tear off the label of things he supposedly promised would be in those games; They are all good games as they are, rather most audience disappointment comes from not seeing his promises become real in his games.

*The reason I label this as unfortunate is because women make up more than half of the human race, homosexuals are nowhere near this, yet the Gay Rights movement has managed equal pay and Marriage (Civil Union) rights much quicker than the Feminist movement did. In fact, the Feminist movement is STILL seeking equal pay for women. If it bugs you that women, who make up more than half of our race, earn less money than a man directly out of MIDDLE school in the same position, then for the love of god, look up your state representatives, and make sure they support equal rights for gender, sex, sexual preference, and race.

Furthermore, you might try reading up on the previous thread of a similar topic: Females!