Make Sleep a Necessity

[Nesano]

Pretending it's a thing is vastly different from it actually being a thing, so that's irrelevant.

[Neteman]

Sleeping is usually a pain and thirst is just a "hunger2".
I find them boring and tedious like hunger becomes once you are able to stablish a balanced colony/outpost/city. IMHO micromanagement has to be content because it has a high funkilling potential (while it has a lot of fun in it in the correct amount).

Check "Ark": Awesome idea ruined by an excess of surviving mechanicals and micromanagement.

Let it Ark be Ark and let us enjoy Kenshi not being Ark if u don't mind.

[Nesano]

Ark isn't even micromanagement, just preparation for leaving on a supply run etc. Grabbing ammo, maybe a canteen, and maybe some food if it's gonna be a long expedition is fulfilling because it feels more like it would in real life. Even more so when the player gets thirsty, thirsty, or burns through half their ammo, and they think "I'm glad I brought these supplies."

Seriously, a lack of mechanics like this just make a game feel less-immersive and more like some boring casual game.

[Kamical]

Sounds like a mechanic that exists simply to be an annoyance, I already have enough on my plate managing my settlement tasks, running trade routes, sending scouting parties, (Damn AI cores) and defending my walls.

I can't imagine anyone thinking "Oh boy, my favorite part of the game is coming up, where everyone has to stop what they're doing and sleep. I'm glad this feature was added."

We already make our own goals and quests for the most part in the world of Kenshi, (I'd love to see faction specific missions added, but meh) so implementing your own mandatory nap time for your troops is not an unreasonable suggestion.

Sorry friend, there's a line between simulators and RPGs, this is an RPG, mechanics should be tweaked around an enjoyable (yet trying) game play experience.

[Nesano]

This isn't a simulator, but it is hardcore. Sleep necessity is hardcore, but not necessarily simulation.

[lucidmadness]

I want my guys to sleep while not working instead of sitting. I think sleep could be added into robots like a system diagnostic to make sure they are bug free, kind of like how sleep does that for us in the real world. +1 for sleep in kenshi!

[BookKeeper]

thirst as was mentioned and sleep are both in my opinion a necessity to this game. every one is saying that this game is RPG but tell me when Role Play meant never having to sleep, further to that note its a great idea cause it adds depth. not only that but wasn't the selling point to this game squad tactics as is shown in their trailer.

imagine your running your trade and the guards are changing shifts for night watch now is your chance to sneak in and go to the shinobi thieves and sell the drugs you have, or you start the game you run a small " me, myself, and I" mining run and realize that its not such a cake walk anymore cause you now have to manage your thirst and sleep instead of looking out for the occasional bandit or animal.

or how about this the double edge variant where you are new and just start and see an injured dust bandit and he is exhausted from his running and fighting and now is your chance to fight him get yourself some new gear and train stats, but switch it and your headed home after a tough fight and the hungry bandits are there and you lose a fight you would have won on any other given day.

this game is still developing and as it is the early game and mid game is all there is to the game there is no late game cause the first 3 hours you can have an empire i know i have done it and in the first 2 hours own every building in the "Hub" that i can buy. i have 23 soldiers/workers and am raking in trade from my shop and the 2 pubs near by and "Squin" to the south is estimated about 100,000- 150,000 an hour i am well equipped and about to head out with pack bulls and my squads to take over an area i found in the "Vain".
for math's sake there is 7 shops in "Squin" and 2 pubs near "Hub", shops have estimated around 10,000 - 25,000, time in game running the trade is lazy cause in fast forward its about 15 minutes for a day and at 10,000 from them per 15 minutes = 10,000*9=90,000*4=360,000 per hour
minus about 40,000 in food every 4 days. copper per set of 9 is 1,620 and iron is per 9 / 810. and now have 22 people split harvesting copper and iron while the other uses pack bulls to haul it around
and from the start loot hub and sell the stuff and get some quick items from starting a bar fight and you buy the 2 people in the bar start mining and then get the 5-7 people in "Squin" you will then be able to start a mining op at the "Hub" go from there and time your self on fast forward

there needs to be more immersion and threat but all of you are right there doesn't need to be more micromanaging of the system and a lot of stuff just autos anyways and for the most part the squads members just go and eat when they need and a water barrel can let them refill their water flasks or get a drink if they don't have them. the only real micromanaging in the game is in the first 2 hours of game play unless you have squads all over

sleep can provide the tactical edge to this game and meaning to "keep one eye open"

both resources can have a great balancing effect for the game and prolong the start which is much needed cause as it is now the span for early game to late game is measured in about 5 hours adding a more intuitive AI and putting the dust bandits and others in a bed will allow for night time attacks or if the bandits become more active during the night, even assaulting in for the cites and encampments so there is actual sieges to participate in besides your own base's

it adds another depth of engagement to the game and if done right could have great results and less micromanagement, with that said ill comeback in a day or 2 and post some ideas on how to properly apply it.

instead of saying why it shouldn't find out how it can. this is how development works and the more we work to make it better then the more progress that shows and the game reaches its potential

[Grimmrok]

--zip--

Such a long comment with very little value.

As it has been mentioned again and again: Your people getting tired and needing sleep wouldn't bring anything of value to the game. No "depth", no "strategy", no "hardcore mechanic". Just tediousness.
People already "sleep" enough in this game, be it unconscious from a battle, be it recovery coma, or be it to heal your injuries. There is sleep, and it's more than enough the way it is now.

This is a game, so just because something might be more "realistic" to add to this game, it doesn't necessarily mean more "fun" or that it would work in this particular game.

Diseases. Infections. Defecating. Growing old. Food sickness. Allergies. Exhaustion. Sleep deprivation. Thirst. Romance. Birth. Children. Individuality. The list continues.

You might want "Sleep" and "Thirst" to add to the realism, but why stop there?
... and suddenly you realize that this is no longer a squad-based RPG game, it is no longer the "go out there and explore the map", no. It's a sim management game. Kenshi is not that game.

[Nesano]

As it has been mentioned again and again: It's not tedious, it's immersive. There are ways to make sleep necessary without making it tedious. Even if it were tedious, the immersive nature of it would make up for it. Adding sleep to the game wouldn't automatically make the game a sim management game. Adding sleep to the game doesn't mean diseases, infections, defecating, growing old, food sickness, allergies, exhaustion, sleep deprivation, thirst, romance, birth, children, and individuality will also be added. Why stop there? Stop there because this thread is about sleep being a necessity and none of those other things you mentioned. Most of the time when people talk down the notion of sleep being a requirement they just strawman because they know it's something the game could benefit from but they want the game to be casual.

"Such a long comment with very little value." Get over yourself.

[Hatsune_Neko]

you are welcome to stop now.
there is no need to vigorously defend your idea. people offered their opinions. you accept them or not.
lets not start insulting people because you do not agree with their opinion of your idea.

I have had to warn more people in the past week then i have had to in the past 4 years i been moderating this board. so keep on topic and be polite. you will not like the outcome of the alternative.

[Nesano]

Thanks for not even acknowledging the wrong done to BookKeeper by Grimmrok. I wasn't about to just sit here while that happened. I didn't insult him, I told him to get over himself because he needs to. BookKeeper's response didn't have "little value," it was pretty well-thought out. It's not about vigorously defending "my idea," it's about getting the story straight in regards to why sleep requirement would be a good thing in Kenshi. Everyone is welcome to stop, but I'm not going to.

[Ocram]

Pretty sure Neko wasn't referring to you in particular Nesano, it was a warning for everyone to keep it polite, and put a stop to where the topic is going, not on expressing your ideas. It's cool to discuss ideas, less cool to attack people.

[Nesano]

I hope so. Guess I could give her the benefit of the doubt. Wasn't about to just sit there while somebody talked to BookKeeper that way, though. I was pretty annoyed when somebody seemed to be overlooking what he did right after I shined light on it.

[Hatsune_Neko]

It is a general warning to all.

[BookKeeper]

thank you Nesano. I was trying to call how that sleep can be a betterment to the game in a tactical stand point, like as in State of Decay 1 -2 if you don't sleep you fatigue and when that happens your survival chances plummet. i have no clue as to why people wish not to improve or even think of expanding the game content. i would , as a developer, wish to seek the potential highest my game could achieve.

• SLEEP--- pros and cons
  • Pros
    • if done right it could lead to exceptional game play of advanced tactics and forward progress, as it is now i am spending more time writing my book then actually playing. Things that could potentially be implemented for it are; bonus stats, growth rate increase, lessened wound severity, ambush tactics more feasible, stealth more then just an evade tool, actual nocturnal encounters (ex. new creatures / new groups solely for night time activitys), at the current dev point i am curious whether or not the AI will get a boost and then you will be thinking from all the bag checks and inability to play as a band of thieves, for RPG purpose, that you'll be wishing they would have guard changes or go to bed.
  • Cons
    • if done right there will be moderate to little actual increase to management, if poorly done high management is gonna cripple the game.
      the things in the path for cons are; new stats to manage, combat management further increased, less productive work from your squad (cause the needed sleep), battles that could have been won are lost do to sleep deprivation
  there is more for both but that is a long debate and the furthest point to be made is that it should at least be given a chance and see how it goes cause there is a lot of great survival games that require sleep just to provide a more survival aspect and humanization to the game

and thank you Neko for keeping the peace

[Grimmrok]

I'm sorry if I came off a bit rude earlier, but I'm tired of people suggesting sleep being a necessity.
As I mentioned, there is already enough "sleep" in the game, and for those that enjoy travelling a lot in this game it already hinders their play style.

Having to also sleep for another 8 hours or so for the sake of just needing sleep only means just more time doing nothing and not progressing on your objectives.

Now add to that the fact that you might have a 30-man faction (or bigger with mods), having to manage each individual to get enough sleep takes away from whatever else that you could be doing. Like, playing the game.
But then having people sleep at different times so you have some characters to manage at night time while others at day time, that's only fine if your play style is having an automated base where people wake up, work and go to sleep. The kind of game that Rimworld is, where sleep works just fine.

"If it's done right", "if it's done right", "if it's done right".
If communism is done right it would work. Or so they claim, but if anyone's paid attention in history classes then they'd know that it's not quite so.
Whatever your "done right" is in this matter is only the ideal way that you would want it to work like, meanwhile someone else might have a different idea of how it would be "done right".
So, shortly put, "if done right" is not a valid suggestion or argument.

But I, as many others, I presume, believe that any implementation of required sleep due to exhaustion is only going to hinder our gameplay, and perhaps just force us into a different play style than what we've been enjoying so far in Kenshi.

Adding sleep to the game doesn't mean diseases, infections, defecating, growing old, food sickness, allergies, exhaustion, sleep deprivation, thirst, romance, birth, children, and individuality will also be added. Why stop there? Stop there because this thread is about sleep being a necessity and none of those other things you mentioned.

"Thirst". Sure, this post was only about "sleep", but "thirst" has also been mentioned quite a few times in the post, even by you.

Seriously, a lack of mechanics like this just make a game feel less-immersive and more like some boring casual game.

As you say, "a lack of mechanics like this just make a game feel less-immersive". "Boring" and "casual", as you put it.
You have mentioned sleep and thirst to make this game more "hardcore" and "immersive", and that's why I bring up all the "illnesses" and "aging" and such for more immersion and in-depth mechanics, as the whole basis of you wanting sleep necessity in the game is.

So why stop on "sleep"? Well, someone might not think it's "hardcore" enough yet. Someone will think that it's still just a "casual and boring game" when their characters can't get diseases, or, as mentioned in other feature suggestions, your characters "disobeying your orders".
_________________________________
That being said, there is a line that has to be drawn between "enjoyable gameplay" and "hardcore gameplay".
You can always add more mechanics to make it more "hardcore", but one must also know where to stop in order to keep their vision of the game alive.

If you want something with hardcore management immersive mechanics, try out a game like Project Zomboid. That can afford to have the amount of micromanaging because it was designed around it.
But then a game like Kenshi is more about exploring, managing a town, combat, etc. Focuses on doing what you want to do, not on keeping your pawns "happy" and "rested". That focus can easily shift depending on the features that get added to the game, and "sleep necessity" is one of such features.

We already have hunger, no point in adding much more when you take into consideration the kind of game that Kenshi is.

[TerrorofKenshi]

The problem with Kenshi is that it is both an ROG and a base building game. You could add sleep in an RPG ONLY game but in a game that does both...Well that'd be like adding sleep to the units of Age of empires for example. It would be so annoying. Just be happy that you can get hungry at all for the added challenge.

If you wanna add another needs bar then i feel like getting thristy would make a lot more sense AND it would be manageable in the base build mode.

[PTTG]

What if instead of sleep being necessary, beds were needed?

If a squad member owns a bedroll or has an assigned bed, they get a bonus representing the fact that they don't have to (abstractly) sleep on the floor. Throw in a several-days-long buff from sleeping in a rented bed, so big-spending travelers are OK too.

If you don't have a bedroll and don't stop in inns and don't have a base, then the effect is essentially that you're pulling an all-nighter or two, sleeping on the sand, and so on... but actually dealing with setting them down and packing them up is abstracted away.

I like this in particular because it rewards people who build bases with room for everyone to sleep, for example.

[Nesano]

That's an okay idea, it's just that sleeping takes up time and just having an assigned bed wouldn't. We're already incentivized to make beds so that we can heal, so adding bonuses to having assigned beds wouldn't really do that much.

[PTTG]

Just to clarify, the bonus would only apply to each character with a specific, assigned bed.