Research should be more Complicated...

[Katerchen]

I dont like the idea of someone working on a "Research Bench", Inventing all kinds of stuff. It's not only illogical but also kinda annoying, you just select what you want and then sit there watching the counter go down / the bar growing.

so heres my Idea:
Research Complicated!
First of all: The Story of Kenshi seems to be some kind of Post-Apocalyptic stuff. So getting "new" technologies is more or less just "finding out how the old ones did it"

So, Researching NEW technologies, like how to build bigger buildings, or how to build specific machines, or how to Weave fabric, could be "teached" to your group by Books you find. I mean come on, in our world today there are TONS of books that are hundrets of years old. So why not make the research in kenshi come out of books from the "old civilisation" - if you find a Book - which spawns like random loot on eg bandits or Scavengers - which explains something about "architecture", you can go to - for example - a bookcase and study it for learning how to build bigger houses. or if you find a book about Chemistry, you could learn how to brew Ale or produce Oil. Mechanics books could teach you better Engines/Power plants, Economics could teach you better Storage Methods and so on - i think you got the idea.

but Books should not be the only Method! somethink like a "thinking desk" ( Research Table xD ) could still be in - For Making the old stuff better! - For example you learned from a book how to build a basic generator - but you can't learn how to build a perfect generator just from reading a book!
So after you got the Tech for building the Basic generator, you can research on the Research Table how to make it work better - How to upgrade it, so it produces more, costs less or whatever it may be. but i dont like the idea of Choosing what exactly you want - it would be more "realistic" and fun over the long run (and Kenshi seems to be a game which should be fun over a long time!) when you just can say "go and study the generator" - He then goes and looks how he can make it better. If his science skill is good enough and you are lucky, after some days, he could find out how you make the Energy output grow. Or that you can make some parts smaller, so it costs less if you build a new one. Or something else!

With this research method you Encourage Walking around, Fighting and Exploring the world (because you need the books) and still have the Long-Time-Research the current "research table" system gives you to make your stuff work better.
And, when you need to Invent every small piece of shit, you cant just sit there and research untill you can make your Epic equiment and go hunt some bandits, but you have to hunt bandits BEFORE you can build the epic stuff

Last:
I know Kenshi is still in an early development Phase, and this is just an Idea how to make it more Awesome, not a "go make it so NOW!"-post Please tell me what you think about it

[Dexarnael]

I just started to play the game and didn't even tried the research part, but i like the Idea.

[iSuck345]

Why do people say it's an apocalypse when Chris hasn't even said that?

[Tolwrath]

because based on the juxtaposed technology levels and visual motifs it looks like civilization once ended and had to reboot itself scavenging knowledge from the old world. At least they aren't calling it steampunk anymore.

[Dongsmasher]

If the world is post-apocalyptic, how could these books have survived the cataclysm? Why isn't there one über-clan running around Brotherhood of Steel style with lasers and mechs taking and jealously guarding these books? Why are enormous world wars not being waged for these pieces of paper?

I dunno man, I really don't like this idea. Seems like needless grind with a weak premise solely for the purpose of grinding.

[Beckz]

So I just read the news:

(...)
I'm also going to make the higher level research technologies take a lot lot longer to complete than the ones at the start.
(...)

And I don't really like the concept that Research only needs time!
Simply, because Kenshi is an open world game were you can hide in a corner for as long as you want!

Meaning:
1. Start a game
2. Loot dead people
3. Buy a house in a city
4. Put a research bench in it
5. Select every research
6. Go surf in the Internet until all research is done

So I searched the forum and it seems that some share my opinion.
In this thread here and the one in this link.

There are a lot of interesting ideas, where I think: "Cool, but unlikely to be realized"

My idea is pretty simple and quite similar to the one from Katerchen.

The Story of Kenshi seems to be some kind of Post-Apocalyptic stuff. So getting "new" technologies is more or less just "finding out how the old ones did it"

Meaning, aside from the fact that research needs time and a research-table it also needs resources!

At the beginning simply technologies may only need time or simple resources like some Building Material, Foot or Fabric! But later you will need more specific resources!

For example:

Weapon Research:

Stage 1: Simple Weapons / Early Research
-> Resources: The wished Weapon Type (e.g. Katana(straight))
-> Research: Some dude looking at the weapon for 5 hours trying to recreate it.
-> Result: The dude teaches others how to do it and it becomes common knowledge

Stage 2: Good Weapons / Adv. Research
-> Resources: Kidnapped Weaponsmith / Armorer
-> Research: Some dude learning the secret behind making good Weapons from the Armorer for 10 hours
-> Result: The dude teaches others how to do it and it becomes common knowledge

Stage 3: Unique Weapons / Master Research
-> Resources: Ancient Blueprint / Book
-> Research: Some dude making plans to conquer the world for 20 hours
-> Result: The dude teaches others how to do it and it becomes common knowledge


So to sum it up and giving my opinion to some of the other proposals:

1. Every Research needs some sort of resource!
- some Research, if started, may trigger a quest for you to kidnap someone or to go and take some blueprint from a bandit lair or a city vault

2. Every research needs time and a research-table to be completed!
- there are NO multiple research-trees or different research-professions
- higher science-skill simply allows for faster research

3. Every successful research will be made public to your faction!
- Even if an Engineer doesn't know "why" e.g. a building has to be build a specific way, he can still do it over and over again, without a scientist holding his hand, meaning there are NO minimum skill requirements to build, research or produce something


So I hope I didn't forget anything!
And all I pretty much want for the research is this:

(...)
With this research method you Encourage Walking around, Fighting and Exploring the world (because you need the books) and still have the Long-Time-Research the current "research table" system gives you to make your stuff work better.
And, when you need to Invent every small piece of shit, you cant just sit there and research untill you can make your Epic equiment and go hunt some bandits, but you have to hunt bandits BEFORE you can build the epic stuff

[iSuck345]

because based on the juxtaposed technology levels and visual motifs it looks like civilization once ended and had to reboot itself scavenging knowledge from the old world. At least they aren't calling it steampunk anymore.

It looked like Hitler was going to kick the world's ass, then look what happened.

[CalPal]

Not gonna lie, Beckz has a pretty good idea on what we could do to improve research on the whole. Longer research time is nice and all, but needing to continuously go out into the world to improve ourselves definitely seems to make sense for me.

[Clawdius Talonious]

It was stated by Chris in the recent interview that in the future, once the map is expanded, we'll have to go to and defend outposts in certain locations to acquire things to research from nearby ruins, or something to that effect.

[Pita]

I'm fairly sure someone else has mentioned this before, but I want to say it again because I think it really suits the sandbox nature of the game. It's probably pipe-dream (I don't know the first thing about how Kenshi works under the hood), but I think it's worth considering.

Technology should be character driven.

A faction should have the best weapons because they have the most knowledgeable weapon smiths, and should be able to hold on to/build on that by having an infrastructure for passing on that knowledge. (schools/dojos/or have a system for taking on apprentices in workshops)

Entirely new technology can be introduced either quite simply by having a rare chance for geniuses in their respective fields to be inspired with ideas during their work (subject to a bunch of prerequisites so technology progresses naturally), or more purposefully having them man the existing research bench. (although this still irks me a bit. maybe only allow characters to research new tech if they've had 'inspiration' earlier)

Perhaps the research bench could also be used for analysing technology that you have acquired from other factions, but don't have the ability to produce yourself yet. This would tie into going out into the world to gain new tech.


Some of the benefits:

Technology moving around the map in emergent ways. Often by proximity.
Characters become more important and unique.
Can have the archetypal isolated groups of experts protective of their knowledge.
Suits the technological era & inspirations of the game. Passing on secret knowledge!

The same system could translate into martial arts as well, with knowledge of special techniques & styles being passed from teacher to student. Bring on the dojos!


Would require some extra UI, with a tab for each character showing what special knowledge they have, and an over-all-tech page displaying your faction knowledge groups into categories with something like drop-down lists of faction members who possess that knowledge.

Of course, having the knowledge to make/do something is different from being able to do it well!

[theunfrailhale]

this sounds pretty cool to me. If certain clans had technologies, which you acquired either by force, purchase, or persuasion/permission. Its another reason to make the isolated castle a less viable solution all by its self, and adds meaning to exploration and visiting different towns. I would like to see something like this be expanded upon.

[Edril]

I personally love the idea of character driven technology. Having masters in certain fields spread out around the map would be amazing.

You could either acquire this technology by sending someone to apprentice for the master - in which case you would lose that character for a long time since he would have to be there learning, and probably have to pay something to be taught this technology - or you could take the technology by force, and attempt to raid the area and capture the master to force him to work for you as a slave.

Imagine how hard it would be to capture a master armorsmith protected by an entire faction equipped with the best armor available while your men are using entirely inferior gear.

[Meynolt]

First of all: The Story of Kenshi seems to be some kind of Post-Apocalyptic stuff. So getting "new" technologies is more or less just "finding out how the old ones did it"

This is just semantics, but... some stuff would need to be re-invented completely. You probably wouldn't be able to find everything written down in a book. Still, it's an interesting idea. I think I've mentioned before that research should contain another component to it - other than just having someone sit at a desk until he figures out how to make it. Whether it's these books, or some kind of resource input... or something.

Entirely new technology can be introduced either quite simply by having a rare chance for geniuses in their respective fields to be inspired with ideas during their work

What about every time a weaponsmith makes a sword, there's a chance for it to be a new design... I guess even a leveling up of the weaponsmith themselves so they become more skilled an perform more advanced techniques.

Perhaps the research bench could also be used for analysing technology that you have acquired from other factions, but don't have the ability to produce yourself yet. This would tie into going out into the world to gain new tech.

I like this. It should be slower-going and more resource costly than getting the information from a book though.

Why do people say it's an apocalypse when Chris hasn't even said that?

iSuck^345, why do you suck so much? Chris says, and I quote: "it's kind of samurai influence... bit of post-apocalyptic, mad-max style..." at 2:00 to 2:10 in his online interview here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... mZui7KJpEA#!