Some ideas regarding DF and M&B

[toxiciron]

After playing this game for a while, I notice it resembles the Adventurer mode from Dwarf Fortress, and the game Mount & Blade. I just thought I would bring up some ideas on what both games manage to do great, and maybe Chris could use some as ideas.

First off, I like the pain feature of Dwarf Fortress. Too many painful attacks to your character, and he may just pass out from pain, even if there isn't any actual serious damage. However, if your character enters a martial trance, he no longer feels pain.

Another feature of Dwarf Fortress I like is The multiple layers of flesh each animate thing has. They usually have a skin layer, a fat layer, a muscle layer, and then vital organs or nerves, and then bones. There are also 2 types of nerves, sensory and motor nerves. You do NOT want your motor nerves severed. Bones can also, if broken with enough "umph", damage tissues nearby. A feature like this would be quite awesome to incorporate into really any game, as none (besides DF) have seen this level of realism. Heck, even this game has a pretty advanced damage system.
So, using a sharp weapon, you can easily split everything but the bones. Use a blunt weapon, and you may only bruise the top layers, but the bones take the brunt of the impact. Since this game already has a difference between blunt and cut damage, that may be more easy to incorporate. This level of detail may be a little too excessive, though, because we won't be needing to worry about individual toes and fingers lost to every single soldier.

(Crazy cool DF story - I wrestled an elf to the ground, tore off his coat, and threw it at him with such Altoid strength, it smashed one of his ribs into his heart and obliterated it... how, idk. Also, one time I was shot by an archer, and he had instilled such anger in me that I decided my main weapon was useless. I ran up to the archer, wrenched the arrow from my chest, and stabbed him multiple times. Yes, the game's pretty violent.)

Things M&B does well - hiring and maintaining soldiers is simple and streamlined. As the game is right now, you pretty much have to buy every individual piece of armor and separately hire every companion. I bet Chris will improve it later, but perhaps use M&B as inspiration for simplification. One thing I would wonder, though, is how to define the line between hiring a shiz-ton of soldiers and automatically equipping them, and hiring a specialized and personalized sidekick to travel with you, like how it is now.

[Lorenzo666]

On response to the M&B Recruiting system thing-bob, Maybe we could have the option to hire Mercenaries or local Farmers/Townsfolk, who come with their own starting equipment and could be given better equipment or maybe allowed town leave with a small amount of Kats to buy Alcohol and Equipment.

It would certainly be a cool feature. You could also implement morale into this.

If the soldiers are unhappy or annoyed, you could send them on Town Leave to let them Perk up, though most of their money would be spent on Alcohol. If the Soldiers REALLY hate you, then they may desert from the group if given the chance.

It would be nice.

[Pain]

Never really played DF too much, but your stories rock!

Maybe there could be officers (people we hire like it implemented now, with individual inventory) and grunts (like Lorenzo suggested, farmers, townspeople, and such, with some standard layout). The officers would clearly be the elite units of the squad and the grunts would serve as cheap muscle.

I like your both your ideas and think it would not be misplaced in a game like Kenshi.

[Quaesitor]

I really like the actual system as it gives a more personal feeling to each caracter.
Also, growing them from useless rookies to killing machines is satisfying and I grow attached to these caracters, each one of my soldiers is unique.
In M&B I couldn't care less if my regulars got killed as I had a shitload of them and they only meant I would have to bring more rookies to the front and half of them would get through amd become knights or else, there was no sense of accomplishement in the building of a caractet, no real care for them.

I never played DF but I like the idea of many layers but Chris has said that the medical system was not finished so it might be in his to-dos.

[Kamos]

I'd really only worry about recruiting and managing units once we have our own faction to manage or, provided we can, get to a command rank in a preexisting army.
You can always have your personal honor guard of sorts made up of personalized companions with the grunts being disassociated with you and being somewhat autonomous under officers you really give commands to. Like a real army functions.

[wolfwood296]

mabey the noble familes would have chain and plate armor since they could afford it while the peasants would only have like leather armor and some sort of cheap weapon that could easily be replaced.

of course based on your faction, you could give peasants honners for doing well and getting a reputaion for being deadly in battle, this might make the conscrips of other armies easier to defect since they would hear about the good natured or well rewarding leader and think that things would be easier in that army (mabey your army is only peasants that would fight to the end to help their good nature leader, or fight to the death because failure is not an option )

[Barooney]

mabey the noble familes would have chain and plate armor since they could afford it while the peasants would only have like leather armor and some sort of cheap weapon that could easily be replaced.

(mabey your army is only peasants that would fight to the end to help their good nature leader, or fight to the death because failure is not an option )

That reminded me of a cool thing Bioware/EA did with Dragon Age.

Our characters in that game are ALL peasants or below the higher tiers of nobility.

And each nobleman or land owner (Tyr they called them) is democratically elected not because he forced himself like a dictator but because he is the closest man with enough manpower and political weight to be able to protect them from an invader and solve their disputes.

[An obligatory reminder that King Arthur in Monty Python's The Holy Grail wasn't elected by the people so BioWare may have messed with that seeing as many British companies reference the Pythons]

Being a citizen in one land protected by a DragonAge nobleman meant that if you were angry at him for not protecting you or getting corrupt and greedy... A call to arms and a revolt against him was always an option for leaders in a democracy are weak without the people, right?



I've no idea how can the above be applied to Kenshi until the game is near 74% completion.

[wolfwood296]

i agree that this wouldn't be implented yet since there are no villeges for a start, so every one exept the bandits would be noble and have the best weapon and skills which would mean total over kill.

but once this is added (if it will be) you couldn't get the nobles automaticly, they would have to come to you from fear of another noble, come to offer support to you vastly growing empire, of was forced out of their home and wanted some freinds to fight with, while farmers could be recrutied by hearing rummors of your great victories and wanted to come to have a share in the glory.

[toxiciron]

Well, I'm not quite so sure this game would have nobles and stuff like that, because in a post-apocalyptic world, I'm sure everyone already has modern ideas about government and stuff... I mean, there are companies and brand-names and stuff, they didn't do that back in the dark ages.

[wolfwood296]

but you forgot the trader guild and the 3 factions they all have rich people cause how else do those people get the funds need to fund a war (it would take more than peasant support) so say there were some key people with diffrent personalities that funded factions and guilds and at some point they might be acussed of treason or just defect and run away, you could then find them in a secret hidout and them either fight them for their loot or recruit them to your cause (this would give you the same amount of gold and supplies, but now you have a noble and any follower he has, you also don't have anyone wounded cause you tried to kill a noble)

[txfirefighter]

Well, I'm not quite so sure this game would have nobles and stuff like that, because in a post-apocalyptic world, I'm sure everyone already has modern ideas about government and stuff... I mean, there are companies and brand-names and stuff, they didn't do that back in the dark ages.

however, in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

someone will have something that other people want therefore, he offers them this resource in turn they give him their service. this leader doesnt have to be a tyrant or anything--he could be quite peaceful and hate war--however he wants peace restored and he uses his resource to his advantage. its what we see now in kenshi pretty much.

as far as huge societies, i doubt they would exist in a post apoc world.

but you forgot the trader guild and the 3 factions they all have rich people cause how else do those people get the funds need to fund a war (it would take more than peasant support) so say there were some key people with diffrent personalities that funded factions and guilds and at some point they might be acussed of treason or just defect and run away, you could then find them in a secret hidout and them either fight them for their loot or recruit them to your cause (this would give you the same amount of gold and supplies, but now you have a noble and any follower he has, you also don't have anyone wounded cause you tried to kill a noble)

what about population growth? how serious is Kenshi going to be? possibly have babies and eventually they grow into men and your faction grows that way. (this would all be preprogrammed in of course.)

[wolfwood296]

i shall have an army of children the weild short katanas that do .7 damage

but really i think the population would be a good thing, but haveing children may not be such a good thing since a lot of people don't like children being killed no matter if its a game or real (same thing was talked about in skyrim)

[killerx243]

I personally would prefer them to be captureable instead of killable, they can't fight back, the child just attempts to hide in a house while the town is under attack. They would integrate into the society that captures them (for fear of death?). So they would eventually be bandits or even the players faction if they are bandits or liberated the captured children.

[txfirefighter]

I personally would prefer them to be captureable instead of killable, they can't fight back, the child just attempts to hide in a house while the town is under attack. They would integrate into the society that captures them (for fear of death?). So they would eventually be bandits or even the players faction if they are bandits or liberated the captured children.

thats a cool idea. could be reasons for factions to launch an attack against you.

[killerx243]

Soon the world will be full of my cheap to produce, for unknown reasons, goods.

[Clawdius Talonious]

I like some of the ideas being bounced around in this thread. DF sounds like it had quite an intricate damage model, perhaps something simplified to just an outer layer (for bleeding) muscle (for bleeding/functionality) and bone it would be easier to implement? I could see a more advanced field medic being able to stitch a wound closed, while perhaps without that level of skill you might have to go back to a town for care or resort to cauterization which could have lasting negative effects?

While Mount and Blade had some interesting bits, to me it was often a bit silly. I would personally kill a hundred men in a castle siege, so I really prefer the system in Kenshi to that sort of ridiculous scenario. Of course, I would have found M&B much more enjoyable if I had the option to actually build and send in siege engines. Ordering siege ladders to advance to specific areas, or giving the order to pour down bubbling pitch from the walls and ignite it, that would have been something that I found quite entertaining on both sides of the battlefield.

The idea of having a town grow organically, via children is an interesting idea. The more food you have available to a town, the faster it grows. If you block caravans heading into towns, they starve and begin to abandon the town? Eventually perhaps the guards would come out to attack you, maybe the peasants too? All very intriguing.

Personally I'd love to see more beverages available to trade. Ale is useful as a nutrient as well as a stress relieving activity. Clean water is often a commodity in a desert type environment, rum or more potent ales added to less potable sources of water will produce grog or small beer just so people can drink it without worrying about bacterial contamination. Of course, I guess there would need to be a hydration modelling system in place before it became necessary to add that sort of thing. But an army marches on it's stomach, feeding and hydrating soldiers is an often overlooked part of warfare. If there was an illness modelling system that could simulate sickness contracted from drinking impure water (as well as reduced combat efficacy for sick soldiers) , well as far as I know Kenshi would be the only game that even attempted to simulate that.

However, the idea of how each unit must be geared manually under the current set-up and what will be done in the future has already been discussed by Chris, in a thread that would seemingly have had nothing to do with that sort of topic on the surface. I realize that this thread has been around awhile, but just in case anyone missed it in the thread "myltithreading"by wolfwood296

There will be classes that you design yourself. Basically pre-defined equipment setups. So you can tell these 5 guys they are "scout" class and they will go to your stores and gear up with light armour and a small blade, all by themselves. If its not in the stores they will place an order with your resident blacksmith.
They will also be grouped into semi-permanent squads.

Its basically going to be like in a 4X strategy game, where you design a type of spaceship then build loads of them.

[killerx243]

I hope you will still be able to gear some of your troops yourself, I like my commandos

I thought of a bit of a dilemma (same one M&B had) for children. How would aging be handled. If kids are becoming adults 20 days from birth then you would need a baby factory to produce soldiers to replace your ever aging crew.

[1337]

Why not have it like the total war series... Only your commanders and such get children that you see grow up and take over the position of your old commanders.

So you'll have for example the son of your main bad-ass general of army, that is kind of the heir to the throne and you'll have to protect him with personal guards.

The other children (like the sons of common soldiers or farmers) would be only a visual gimmick.

[Blxz]

Why not wait until chris announces what he plans to do in that regard before we go into the whole 'hows' and 'whys' and balancing for something that may not even exist and quite honestly brings up more problems than it seems to solve.

[1337]

i'm not sure what problems that brings up
Anyway i think it's alright to talk about it, keeps the community alive. It can also be a source of ideas for mods imo