Irritation with the Racial Bonuses

[Abek]

I do agree that humans should have no bonuses nor penalties, as that is what we as players know best as "average". But I don't agree humans should be assumed to be the epitome of intelligent learning.. That's only based on our life exposure in opposition to non-sentient creatures... We could be the most stupid sentient species in the universe, but at this point, we wouldn't know it. And i'd totally believe it.. Humans can be really disappointing sometimes..

Yes, we can adapt. But what's with the assumption that other sentient species can't? You did say that you don't really have any other humanoids in life to compare us to though..

This opens a can with so many worms in it.

First, the statement that, " I don't agree that humans should be assumed to be the epitome of intelligent learning."

That's like saying, "I don't think we can assume cheetahs are the fastest land mammals."

Though we haven't met any we can still hold them as the gold standard for speed just as we can use humans as the gold standard for intelligent learning.

I worked in a primate cognition laboratory for a while and even the stupidest hungover undergraduates performed better than laboratory monkeys (born and raised with these tests) on cognition tests.

Though the level of animal consciousness is debatable to this day, the fact that we are at the top on the planet Earth is not. Since Kenshi is not necessarily set on Earth as we know it, maybe those new races are smarter. Still, the only way those species could be so similar is that we shared a common ancestor. So really, we shouldn't even call it race (Except the Hive men. There was probably no recent human/hive ancestor). It should honestly be "Choose your species"

Even within a single species, there's so much variation from organism to organism that even to say that as a species (in this example humans) that we're universally better at "science" stuff or "cooking" stuff is entirely ridiculous. That assumes that acquiring a specific skill has a strong genetic component. It really should be physical traits only.

Of course, that's removing the culture aspect. Perhaps all Shek have been working their on their smithing for hundreds of years. There's a large storehouse of knowledge preserved in writing and passed down from father to son. THEN they can have a +20% to smithing. But only in Shek towns. Where the have had, or have at some point read, the Shek archives.

Also, I'm angry that all Scorchlanders MUST be black, but Greenlanders still have the option of moving their skin tone slider all the way to the right and CAN be black too. Whose stupid idea was that?

[Mattk50]

Also, I'm angry that all Scorchlanders MUST be black, but Greenlanders still have the option of moving their skin tone slider all the way to the right and CAN be black too. Whose stupid idea was that?

Speaking of stupid ideas, that thing you suggested about sheks only getting smithing bonuses in shek towns is up there. As an aside, i'll repeat that the skill bonuses are tiny and nearly meaningless in terms of importance to the character, the other attributes are far more important.

Scorchlanders have black skin because they originate from a specific region near a volcano or something. but thats not the only way you get black skin, so greenlanders have a wide range of skin colors reflecting their ubiquity. makes plenty of sense.

[Zeal]

I do agree that humans should have no bonuses nor penalties, as that is what we as players know best as "average". But I don't agree humans should be assumed to be the epitome of intelligent learning.. That's only based on our life exposure in opposition to non-sentient creatures... We could be the most stupid sentient species in the universe, but at this point, we wouldn't know it. And i'd totally believe it.. Humans can be really disappointing sometimes..

Yes, we can adapt. But what's with the assumption that other sentient species can't? You did say that you don't really have any other humanoids in life to compare us to though..

This opens a can with so many worms in it.

First, the statement that, " I don't agree that humans should be assumed to be the epitome of intelligent learning."

That's like saying, "I don't think we can assume cheetahs are the fastest land mammals."

Though we haven't met any we can still hold them as the gold standard for speed just as we can use humans as the gold standard for intelligent learning.

I worked in a primate cognition laboratory for a while and even the stupidest hungover undergraduates performed better than laboratory monkeys (born and raised with these tests) on cognition tests.

Though the level of animal consciousness is debatable to this day, the fact that we are at the top on the planet Earth is not. Since Kenshi is not necessarily set on Earth as we know it, maybe those new races are smarter. Still, the only way those species could be so similar is that we shared a common ancestor. So really, we shouldn't even call it race (Except the Hive men. There was probably no recent human/hive ancestor). It should honestly be "Choose your species"

Even within a single species, there's so much variation from organism to organism that even to say that as a species (in this example humans) that we're universally better at "science" stuff or "cooking" stuff is entirely ridiculous. That assumes that acquiring a specific skill has a strong genetic component. It really should be physical traits only.

Again, you're assuming Earth is the ultimate proof of everything, and applying perfection to humans simply because we're the "top" in one small environment. There is nothing perfect about our brains. It's entirely possible for a brain to be constructed better than ours in another creature. We're the only sentient species on earth. If there were others, it's still entirely possible that in ratio, if we retained the same intellgence we do now, we could still be the apes to this other sentient species.

You can't apply universal ruling based on one environment and one case (earth). Cheetah's are the fastest land animals on earth. That's not the same as saying no species could ever exist smarter than us, because one, until we explore the entire universe, we have no proof that there are no land creatures faster than a cheetah. Only on earth can we say that. They aren't built perfectly to match the maximum potential of physics, just as our brains aren't built for maximum potential of learning. They just happened to built better for it than any other creature here. That doesn't mean they couldn't be built even better though.

Look at this way, as I explained in my prior post. Humans havn't always been this smart. We've gotten significantly smarter over the centuries. I don't know where you lie between religion and science, but according to genetical science, our ancestors were apes. We evolved to the point we are now, so taking your reasoning back several centuries, you'd be saying that our very existence is impossible. Primates would be the epitome of human learning. The best it gets.

As for their bonus for cooking and science, the same concept applies. Having 20% cooking and science doesn't mean they are the best possible that biochemistry/physics allows. It just means they are the best in terms of what species reside on whatever planet Kenshi is. The Kenshi races aren't copies of what exist on earth, so the possibilities are limitless. Since Kenshi is a fictional world, with fictional races, It's not very easy to judge what is and is not possible, especially when it retains reality possibilities (which it does).

I don't think it's opening up any can of worms at all. You're assuming everything on earth is the ultimate example of perfection, divided into different species. This is simply incorrect.

[Abek]

I agree many of your points entirely. The "fastest" or "smartest" animals on Earth can still be designed to a much more efficient degree.

However, to say that the possibility that there are faster land animals means that you cannot say, "Cheetahs are the fastest" because "On planet Glipglork, Animal X runs at 200 mph due to its more elegantly designed build." I think that logic is silly.

Though I agree that in the infinite universe, the odds of there being other sentient species that surpass us is almost guaranteed, so are any other manner of unlikely things.

"The Kenshi races aren't copies of what exist on earth, so the possibilities are limitless. Since Kenshi is a fictional world, with fictional races, It's not very easy to judge what is and is not possible, especially when it retains reality possibilities (which it does).

I don't think it's opening up any can of worms at all. You're assuming everything on earth is the ultimate example of perfection, divided into different species. This is simply incorrect."

Not quitr what I meant but in some places I agree strongly. I suppose my issue is that I want a detailed explanation of, "Creature X has this additional organ that we do not have. Therefore, it does not get tired as quickly."

Hard to conceptualize another better animal and then put us below it for me. Damn my humancentric views.

Still, given that we don't have ANY other references, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that we're the smartest there ever was. I would also say that that Ape that preceded us was the smartest there ever was. I'm not holding a hard standard, just a functional one that can be updated as new information comes out.