Lo-Fi Games

Because the X series and Kenshi share a number of goals (free form gameplay, starting out with nothing, into an empire by trading/fighting, destroying the economy [both ways] etc), I am curious as to how complex the infustructure and Industry in Kenshi will be, as in one or 2 chains for a particular resource or common recources used throughout with specialist workshops and materials needed for more advanced stuff.

Just for cross refrence http://www.argonopedia.org/wiki/Argonopedia. Though, do note, the games differ quite a bit in that very little of the X univese is procedully generated where as kenshi intends to be (eventully) also, X-games are in space

Thats quite an interesting thought really, the way the game wants to be made by the future feature list id say the complexity will be quite high, as a huge fan of the X series id love to see a futuristic steam punk feel game that has all of the mechanics something like X has, i dont know myself if the map is going to be expanded i know its already pretty big but more cities in other areas (maybe across the sea) would be pretty awesome (bit like jump gates in X) but yeah id love to see this game develop into something like X with the amount of freedom you are given (maybe with a less steep learning curve ) either way im keeping a very close eye on development as it seems to be steaming the past few months!

I wouldn't want an economy as complex as in X... because the X "economy" has hardly any complexity. It is completely detached from the rest of the game. You could destroy every space station in the game and enemies would continue to spawn at the same rate and with the same equipment.

Goods are created from vacuum, shuffled around, and returned to the vacuum. Along the way the player (and only the player) gets equipment and money.

Before we can talk about complexity, the economy has to mean something.
It would have to affect an AI faction's wealth, the equipment of it's members, what the faction is doing.

If the entire purpose of the economy is to generate money for the player then sure... use a "stage act" system like in X and call it good.

I have to side with Gazz here. The economy in X is really broken. That does not mean the games suck; in fact, I love the games a lot, except for the first one (can't put my finger on, what misses in that one). With the right combination of goods you can serve a need that is artificial and practically "print" money as a result.

I think, having a functioning economy, that is not broken at one point could prove quite tricky, but then again it would make it super awesome, if the feat of perfect balance could be achieved in a game.

Mind you, I'm not asking for a completely dynamic economy because those are inherently instable.

It's the classic butterfly effect where a shortage in a small part of a faction's economy can lead into a downwards spiral. As a result you have to determine how to resolve bankruptcy of AI factions.

It's easy for players to wish for a dynamic economy because having a noticeable impact would be cool.
What most don't consider is that it has to be stable enough for players to have an economy to impact. =)
For a game to work, there needs to be some sort of artificial stability.

By artifical stability i assume you mean stuff like money from nowhere, endless faucets, making it impossible for a faction to go bankrupt. this sort of gameplay is incredibly common, and would fly directly in the face of the other goals of kenshi that have been previously over-viewed by chris. (where or not these ambitions are possible we dont know, but i'm sure he'll try his damned hardest) if a faction cant go bankrupt and start hemorrhaging their soldiers, territory, and citizens then possible consequences become very limited.

I do recognize how difficult it is to make it so factions can actually resolve their financial woes. Basically, the only way to do it is to make factions able to be completely destroyed, in addition for new factions to form. You'd need to have a game where the AI could plan out cities anywhere, control funds, and have some sort of higher abstracted strategy. There would need to be a pool of faction cultures/ethics/names, that could spring up when the right conditions are met, to assure a world that never becomes stale. Basically, you'd need dwarf fortress levels of detail running in the background.

Not only that, you'd need the AI to be able to deal with that complexity in an intelligent fashion.

In theory it's easy. Just let the AI play out every permutation and pick the action that nets the best outcome.
In practice, it's not doable because every resource-producing building changes the equation, material transports between cities take huge amounts of time during which bad things can happen to the carriers, military action can go all kinds of wrong.

Having the AI "save up" for expensive projects is also not as easy as it sounds.
There is a very thin line between urgent present needs and long term benefit.

Writing AI is easy when the range of decisions is small...

Could this be mitigated by a "phantom" income (a faction receives a set income, set amount of guards/soldiers for it's home turf, tiny bit of raw materials), but receive increased amounts with resource buildings and farms and such?

Monetary income can be explained as tax, soldiers cause every faction has its loyal soldiers who won't give up despite waning odds.

Gazz wrote:Mind you, I'm not asking for a completely dynamic economy because those are inherently instable.

Oh that is a shame. Local market crashes brought on by manipulations by the player would be really cool.

just a tough.... but money in actual economy MEANS something.
money used to mean gold bars, before the economy turned WAY TOO DIFICULT for a game...
so... AI and the player faction mine for gold. then they produce gold bars. Then they fraction those gold bars into gold coins.
cons: none.
pros: Gold mines will become a HUGE asset for a faction. the kind of asset that some random warlord could start a war for....

that is economy in its simplier way. you shut down the mine, and the faction has to live from its savings... until they find another mine, or retake the previous one. or start selling another good, and become an economical slave.... (kinda like in the real world)

then you can twist it a bit.... your mine workers would need food. water. tools. and there you are.
all you need to start an economy, is a rare enugh resource, that can be divided into smaller pieces (coins)

i hope it helps....

God I hope so, I like REALLY complex games like X-COM, Rulers of Nations, etc. . I wold also like to see different coins, each wold have a different "purity" (value), thus making it more "medieval", complex and chaleging. This makes players think twice before going to another territory, with a highly more different culture, goverment, religion and policies. The more challeging and more logic requires and the more you must think twice and analyze every aspect, the more complex and entertaining it is.

iSuck345 wrote:God I hope so, I like REALLY complex games like X-COM

xcom is a few things but, complex? When i hear complex i think DF, aurora, the actual x series this thread is discussing (which isnt xcom).

Mattk50 wrote:

iSuck345 wrote:God I hope so, I like REALLY complex games like X-COM

xcom is a few things but, complex? When i hear complex i think DF, aurora, the actual x series this thread is discussing (which isnt xcom).

I mentioned also another few examples to so then you know by what I mean complex, I am not talking about X-COM, rather I'm talking how complex I wold love Kenshi to be and hope that it's as complex as the X-Series, and also there were other games mentioned. Why didn't you put them?

Ive got to agree with questioning the use of the word complex here....

Ruler of nations,and that whole series,doesnt have a complex economy,it has a none working economy that people think is complex because they cant figure it out....because,theres little to figure out thats even there and working


As for what level economy would be good for kenshi....id say something along the line of "The Guild" series.

The Supreme Ruler type,would be too complex a system.

Tbh all we need is a simple supply, and demand economy.
This is a waste land inhabited by people that survived an apocalypse.
Do you really think that a harvard grad economy professor will show up to set-up a stock market?

If we use currency we should base it's value on a valuable item.
Gold for all it's shiney-ness wouldn't be that valuable in a world like this.
Things like water, and electricity, are very valuable.

A water based economy where 100L of fresh water equals 1000 cats could be a start.
Or an electricity bank, where the bank stores your electricity, and lends it to others.
This would give you tokens valued based on the amount of electricity you store.
The token also guarantees that the electricity is stored safely. It also makes managing outposts easier.
As you can deposit electricity on one end of the map, and by way of pigeon post send the token to your
outpost to withdraw it.

Tbh I think that I will write that idea out and post it in the suggestions.

i dont think that the world of kenshi is developed enough to allow a banking system.
a bank needs a stable legal system... and i dont see any of these in kenshi...

the setting is a post tribal society. you might have a warlord here and there, and maybe an ancient empire in decadence.... i wouldnt advice to open a bank right now LOL

fidias wrote:i dont think that the world of kenshi is developed enough to allow a banking system.
a bank needs a stable legal system... and i dont see any of these in kenshi...

the setting is a post tribal society. you might have a warlord here and there, and maybe an ancient empire in decadence.... i wouldnt advice to open a bank right now LOL

Well tbh Europe wasn't very stable during the crusades either, but we had plenty of banking going on then. And banking has been around for a lot longer than most people think. But the merchant banking idea stems from the early middle ages, an age rife with political instability.

tkobo wrote:Ive got to agree with questioning the use of the word complex here....

Ruler of nations,and that whole series,doesnt have a complex economy,it has a none working economy that people think is complex because they cant figure it out....because,theres little to figure out thats even there and working


As for what level economy would be good for kenshi....id say something along the line of "The Guild" series.

The Supreme Ruler type,would be too complex a system.

I wasn't saying that the economics in RoN was complex, I was saying that it's huge complexity in policy is a level of complexity that I want to be present in Kenshi. In other words, I am saying that I like Kenshi having some things complex, but I never said that RoN was complex, only politics, taxes and managing the legalization of p0rnz.

yup,there are a lot of policy choices in that series.

I agree ,its a good choice for a system for policies.Though many of the choices wouldnt fit,they could probably come up with a good sized list that does fit kenshi.

Duck wrote:

fidias wrote:i dont think that the world of kenshi is developed enough to allow a banking system.
a bank needs a stable legal system... and i dont see any of these in kenshi...

the setting is a post tribal society. you might have a warlord here and there, and maybe an ancient empire in decadence.... i wouldnt advice to open a bank right now LOL

Well tbh Europe wasn't very stable during the crusades either, but we had plenty of banking going on then. And banking has been around for a lot longer than most people think. But the merchant banking idea stems from the early middle ages, an age rife with political instability.

let me see... in europe during the crusades you have a pope, a king, a feudal legal system, trade overseas... nations, divine right... i would say that the times of the crusades aint as savage as some people seems to think... maybe you should read a bit more?