Irritation with the Racial Bonuses

[Abek]

This is me griping, but I think it's vaguely justified.

The Shek bonuses are +25 to the health of each limb combined with a 0.9 base bleed rate. They basically bleed out slower and are harder to cripple.

Human bonus?
1.2 xp bonus to learning how to farm and do science.
Make it 1.2 xp bonus to learning all skills and I'll be satisfied.
But farming and science only?
That's just an insult to being human.

sidenote: If cannibals get a 1.2 xp bonus to cooking, I'll shut up and laugh the whole thing off.

[Shidan]

If you're upset about the Shek's combat bonuses, I can't wait till you find out about the Skeleton's. +100 HP to all body parts, and no bleeding at all.

To be fair though, all the races have disadvantages too. Except for humans. So you might call that an advantage as well.

And you're totally right, Cannibals do need a bonus to cooking.

[Abek]

Those disadvantages better be like +15% Stun damage taken by Shek and maybe a full +40% Stun damage to skeletons.

Those a very clear, very powerful bonuses to those races. It also represents a different kind of buff. 1.2x learning only comes into play when using those skills. I can never train my limbs to have more hit points.

I mean, its fine. I'll just mod it to my satisfaction. But I'm curious as to how everyone else feels about it.

[Shidan]

At least in the Skeletons case, they can't use medkits nor can they train strength or dexterity. For healing the have to get a repair kit, and to upgrade those attributes they must upgrade them with parts. No word on how difficult it is to get any of those things yet though. So it might be super easy or it might be super hard.

There's also the deal with racism in the game. Mechanically we don't know how severe it's going to get. But according to the lore as well as dialog that was once in the FCS if you're anything but a Greenlander you're gonna be in for some trouble. At least in the Holy Nation.

Personally I'm ok with humans being the weakest race. Makes for a good underdog situation. And it speaks to human history in the real world too. After all it's our ingenuity that makes us the top of the food chain.

But that's just me. It's times like this it's great that there are mod tools. People can just fix what they don't like themselves.

[nuget102]

I don't think humans are exactly equipped to learn all skills super fast tbh. We're not some 'master race' like a lot of people make us out to be. Humans are surprisingly fragile, and aren't particularly good at fighting.. Most humans when put up against a pack of dogs are likely to die rather than survive... Just what I think though. c: I think the races seem very well balanced. But only gameplay will really tell.

[Abek]

I don't think humans are exactly equipped to learn all skills super fast tbh. We're not some 'master race' like a lot of people make us out to be. Humans are surprisingly fragile, and aren't particularly good at fighting.. Most humans when put up against a pack of dogs are likely to die rather than survive... Just what I think though. c: I think the races seem very well balanced. But only gameplay will really tell.

I strongly disagree, honestly.

I want to preface this by stating that I really welcome discussion and would like to understand the viewpoints of others.

I believe that humans are the epitome of hyperspecialization and adaptability.

Though we're not as strong as a gorilla or as fast as a cheetah we can still shift more weight and move faster thanks to our boundless ingenuity.

When we turn that ingenuity towards warfare and death you better believe we're better equipped than any other animal to walk the face of the earth. Nothing kills better than a human. I fucking love it.

Also, is it like 1 dog vs 1 man? Haha, what are the rules/parameters for this fight? Me vs. My Aunt's Pomeranian?

Attributes like strength and fragility are really all relative, really.

In regards to Kenshi. We can be relatively weak physically, fine. But we are the smartest bastards to ever live.

tl;dr
We are the master race.
Maybe not xp boost to increasing physical traits.
Definitely xp boosts to learning speed for skills.

[Shidan]

-snippity snip-

I agree that humans are set apart from the other animal by our ingenuity, and I would be inclined to say the devs probably agree. Given the bonus to science.

But that doesn't mean we would be equal to species who specialize in something. As an example, the Shek seem to specialize in melee combat as well as the crafting of weapons and armour. Likely because of their upbringing as a warrior race. From what we know, and as I've seen in the dialog, fighting and combat seems very central to who they as a race are.

Your suggestion would give humans the same bonus to those skills. I'm not sure I can justify making humans equal in those skills to someone from a culture so dedicated to them.

The same can be said of Skeletons, who have a bonus to turrets. That makes sense to me, as a computer would be significantly better at tracking targets.

Now all that said, I do believe the humans (or Greenlanders actually), to be a little lackluster. I think maybe a couple more skills could be given a bonus. One example would be athletics. As the human body really was built for running. And I'm sure there are some unimplemented skills that might fit the bill too. But I feel the bonuses must fit.

[Abek]

-snippity snip-

I agree that humans are set apart from the other animal by our ingenuity, and I would be inclined to say the devs probably agree. Given the bonus to science.

But that doesn't mean we would be equal to species who specialize in something. As an example, the Shek seem to specialize in melee combat as well as the crafting of weapons and armour. Likely because of their upbringing as a warrior race. From what we know, and as I've seen in the dialog, fighting and combat seems very central to who they as a race are.

Your suggestion would give humans the same bonus to those skills. I'm not sure I can justify making humans equal in those skills to someone from a culture so dedicated to them.

The same can be said of Skeletons, who have a bonus to turrets. That makes sense to me, as a computer would be significantly better at tracking targets.

Now all that said, I do believe the humans (or Greenlanders actually), to be a little lackluster. I think maybe a couple more skills could be given a bonus. One example would be athletics. As the human body really was built for running. And I'm sure there are some unimplemented skills that might fit the bill too. But I feel the bonuses must fit.

I suppose my bias comes from the fact that there aren't any "humanoid" species to compare humans to in real life.

It's difficult for me to conceive of a species that could be naturally more suited to learning any kind of task than a human.

Maybe if they had different senses that would allow them a greater range of abilities. Like if the skeletons had extremely sharp/optimised vision/sensors so they man Turrets better. I suppose that's a way to look at it. A Shek has a 6th sense of vibration that makes him a better craftsman and so forth.

Some of the other races actually have a different capped top speed than humans. For example the Hive races are faster and Shek are slower. I'd like to see humans shine when Endurance is finally implemented.

I think I've made my peace with the differences. I suppose we're already the baseline that other races are measured from. Coolio. I like that we set the standard.

[swillo]

Actually I think that Humans should be the base line and have NO advantages or disadvantages.
Advantages are then earned according to what areas of training we focus in.
Cannibals are humans that specialize warfare and capture more then normal humans, so they can start with more athletics skills ect... Holy nation humans use heavy weapons and armor so they are generally focused on strength and heavy armor production.
Perhaps UC folk are more technologically inclined so they start with generally higher science and engineering stats.
ect, ect, ect,
But the base is that you can train any human to focus in any given area and they can achieve what any other human can.

Then it's easier to say that Shek have bone covered skins and are therefore more resilient. Thus a racial bonus to their stats, and a like humans they can have a preference to making weapons and armor.

Skeletons may have sixth sense that allows them to judge which way targets are going to dodge so that is where their boost to turrets comes from.

With humans as the baseline it's easy to give other races advantages and disadvantages so that they can be judged in comparison to the human base line.

But to think that we are the best are everything even in the real world is laughable. Have you ever seen a monkey climb or a dolphin swim? We will never achieve those levels of ability even with the most advanced tech that we have. As for warfare? Man with a sword vs Lion, tiger or bear? OH MY! I pick the animal every time.
The only thing that man excels at is killing for killing sake. If animals decided to just kill us preemptively instead of because of a need for food or immediate self preservation, well the world would be a very different place.
In fact that would be an awesome AI to give some of the animals in Kenshi. Wolf packs that hunt humans. Lay in wait for every time you open the gates to your city, or leave to explore, or bed down for the night. Never being able to rest cause they are always lurking just out of reach until you let your guard down and then they attack in force. I don't care If you do have an over the shoulder multi barrel harpoon gun. You be screwed.

[Abek]

Actually I think that Humans should be the base line and have NO advantages or disadvantages.
Advantages are then earned according to what areas of training we focus in.
Cannibals are humans that specialize warfare and capture more then normal humans, so they can start with more athletics skills ect... Holy nation humans use heavy weapons and armor so they are generally focused on strength and heavy armor production.
Perhaps UC folk are more technologically inclined so they start with generally higher science and engineering stats.
ect, ect, ect,
But the base is that you can train any human to focus in any given area and they can achieve what any other human can.

Then it's easier to say that Shek have bone covered skins and are therefore more resilient. Thus a racial bonus to their stats, and a like humans they can have a preference to making weapons and armor.

Skeletons may have sixth sense that allows them to judge which way targets are going to dodge so that is where their boost to turrets comes from.

With humans as the baseline it's easy to give other races advantages and disadvantages so that they can be judged in comparison to the human base line.

But to think that we are the best are everything even in the real world is laughable. Have you ever seen a monkey climb or a dolphin swim? We will never achieve those levels of ability even with the most advanced tech that we have. As for warfare? Man with a sword vs Lion, tiger or bear? OH MY! I pick the animal every time.
The only thing that man excels at is killing for killing sake. If animals decided to just kill us preemptively instead of because of a need for food or immediate self preservation, well the world would be a very different place.
In fact that would be an awesome AI to give some of the animals in Kenshi. Wolf packs that hunt humans. Lay in wait for every time you open the gates to your city, or leave to explore, or bed down for the night. Never being able to rest cause they are always lurking just out of reach until you let your guard down and then they attack in force. I don't care If you do have an over the shoulder multi barrel harpoon gun. You be screwed.

I could live with that. Humans as a baseline makes a lot of sense.

Are you suggesting that the learning bonuses are acquired? As in, we have a second value called learning rate that increasing our skill increase rate? That would be cool. The more you diversify your skill gains, the better you become at learning in general.

We ARE the best at everything in the real world thanks to our technical prowess. A peregrine falcon can fly at 242 mph. We've achieved speeds of 4,510 mph. There are myriad other examples.

Also, yeah. If animals tried to kill humans preemptively, the world would be a completely different place: there wouldn't be any animals because we'd have killed them all.

I feel that focusing primarily on the tooth and claw aspect of physical bodies does us a disservice. Our combination of prehensility, highly advanced social behavior, and cognitive ability is what has separated us from all other animals.

Even in Kenshi, regardless of how strong or fast your character is, he will not defeat a Leviathan alone unless he has a good weapon or a plan. The beast is too strong and eventually your guy will slip up and the fragility of his human body will fail him. However, in highly trained squads, equipped with good armor and heavy weapons? Easy kill.

Why would you use a sword for man's weapon of choice? We've been hunting lions, tigers and bears to nigh extinction for decades. We have so much death at our fingertips.

Animals do not in any way stand any chance against modern man. Collectively, as a species, we've developed such an arsenal, such a vast repertoire of knowledge, that we are essentially gods.

I suppose that since Kenshi is set in a different time, mankind could be put at a disadvantage in some situations. Like if Leviathans were aggressive and Godzilla'd towns when you weren't expecting it. There was a time wild dogs DID beat up every squad I had. I remember having beak things ambush me when I was limping away from a fight. Some smart, lethal, AI animals would definitely be awesome. We'd have to run, lacking the stopping power to fight back. Damn, that sure would be cool.

[swillo]

I could live with that. Humans as a baseline makes a lot of sense.

Are you suggesting that the learning bonuses are acquired? As in, we have a second value called learning rate that increasing our skill increase rate? That would be cool. The more you diversify your skill gains, the better you become at learning in general.

Not a learning bonus, just start with a higher stat in science and engineering. The higher the stat the faster you research and build. That is enough. If you wanted to disadvantage some other races you could put a limit on there science and engineering. I always thought it would be neat if you had to have a certain level of skill to accomplish certain tasks. Like you can't craft edge 5 weapons unless your weapon building skill was in the 70's or something.

We ARE the best at everything in the real world thanks to our technical prowess. A peregrine falcon can fly at 242 mph. We've achieved speeds of 4,510 mph. There are myriad other examples.

And just cause I like to debate things...

And just as many examples of things that we can't do regardless of our technology. We are the dominate life form. that doesn't mean we do everything better, or that we can even do everything that other species can. For example we are still not able to build a sub that can reach the depths that a Sperm whale goes several times a day to hunt for it's food. And they can stay down there longer without having to go through decompression to return to surface.

Also, yeah. If animals tried to kill humans preemptively, the world would be a completely different place: there wouldn't be any animals because we'd have killed them all.

Except in the places where it already happened. Like tigers in parts of India, and lions in Africa, and even bears here in North America. There are many historical examples of what happens when just one animal decides to kill humans just for food. They tend to wreck havoc until on whole populations until they are finally hunted down. And that is just one animal and they are only hunting for food. It's completely different if they decided to actually hunt us in mass for sport like we do them. Heck if Geese decided to take us out they could kills us by the hundreds just by one of them flying into a planes engine. Imagine if none of the planes in the world could take off because the birds wouldn't allow it.

But enough of that, back to Kenshi

I suppose that since Kenshi is set in a different time, mankind could be put at a disadvantage in some situations. Like if Leviathans were aggressive and Godzilla'd towns when you weren't expecting it. There was a time wild dogs DID beat up every squad I had. I remember having beak things ambush me when I was limping away from a fight. Some smart, lethal, AI animals would definitely be awesome. We'd have to run, lacking the stopping power to fight back. Damn, that sure would be cool.

Yeah having some behaviors that were specific to each the animal in would be epic. If wolves would howl when they see you that caused others to come join up with them until they had enough numbers to attack 2 to 1.
If beak things would stampede, then picked up your unconscious bodies and take them back to their nests to feed their young.
If a leviathan would charge and smash walls.
If that new gorilla thing threw large rocks.
I would really like to see a cat like creature that would strike at a party member and then haul them away instead of trying to stand and fight.

So many cool possibilities.

[Abek]

Not a learning bonus, just start with a higher stat in science and engineering. The higher the stat the faster you research and build. That is enough. If you wanted to disadvantage some other races you could put a limit on there science and engineering. I always thought it would be neat if you had to have a certain level of skill to accomplish certain tasks. Like you can't craft edge 5 weapons unless your weapon building skill was in the 70's or something.

Bro, I had this exact idea too! But mine was in regards to different strikes that were unlocked at different weapon proficiencies! For example, at level 60 heavy weapons, a spin that had a full 360 hitbox.
Or a flurry of strikes for katana 60.

And just cause I like to debate things...

And just as many examples of things that we can't do regardless of our technology. We are the dominate life form. that doesn't mean we do everything better, or that we can even do everything that other species can. For example we are still not able to build a sub that can reach the depths that a Sperm whale goes several times a day to hunt for it's food. And they can stay down there longer without having to go through decompression to return to surface.

True enough. We can't do everything that they can, but I promise you we can get there if we want to. There are some limitations that would require exceptional ingenuity to accomplish. For example, Mantis Shrimp have far better vision than we do. We would require completely novel technology to gain their ability to see such a wide range of spectra.

However, this is a lack of technology issue, not a limitation of our physical forms. Our ingenuity allows us to overcome almost any limitations of our flesh.

Except in the places where it already happened. Like tigers in parts of India, and lions in Africa, and even bears here in North America. There are many historical examples of what happens when just one animal decides to kill humans just for food. They tend to wreck havoc until on whole populations until they are finally hunted down. And that is just one animal and they are only hunting for food. It's completely different if they decided to actually hunt us in mass for sport like we do them. Heck if Geese decided to take us out they could kills us by the hundreds just by one of them flying into a planes engine. Imagine if none of the planes in the world could take off because the birds wouldn't allow it.

But enough of that, back to Kenshi

I definitely agree. I love these stories. But in almost every case, once we noticed, we dispatched a hunter. And he killed it. Because that Hunter is a better killer.

In the case of geese and a mass animal uprising, I agree that they could put up a great fight. But only if you placed a human mind in command of their tactics.

They lack the essential social organizations for coordinated strikes on a large scale.

This is not to say that animals don't have their own social structures and can't make highly coordinated attacks. They can and do.

They just can't see big picture. They can't make a conscious and determined effort to drive an entire species to extinction.

My bet, is that in those areas where people were eaten by large cats, the populations of those cats has been rapidly declining for years.

They ate us because we're easy prey. Then we killed them all.

Yeah having some behaviors that were specific to each the animal in would be epic. If wolves would howl when they see you that caused others to come join up with them until they had enough numbers to attack 2 to 1.
If beak things would stampede, then picked up your unconscious bodies and take them back to their nests to feed their young.
If a leviathan would charge and smash walls.
If that new gorilla thing threw large rocks.
I would really like to see a cat like creature that would strike at a party member and then haul them away instead of trying to stand and fight.

So many cool possibilities.

Oh man. Definitely. I would love that. But you know what I would love more?

Better human AI. I know its coming, but I want to see us climbing down cliffs, swimming, dragging objects.

Primarily, I'm really excited for the dialogue. We're so one dimensional on Kenshi at the moment. Social interactions lie at the very heart of being a human being. Early in Kenshi's development, the bandits resembled zombies. They always saw you first, always chased you forever, fought to the very death. It was awesome, but those weren't people.

It would be cool if there were racial differences when it came to dialogue. A hive man can talk to Leviathans because they communicate via chemical signals.

The Shek have a hellscream that brings wild dogs running. Something cool, you know?

[swillo]

Oh man. Definitely. I would love that. But you know what I would love more?

Better human AI. I know its coming, but I want to see us climbing down cliffs, swimming, dragging objects.

I Hear that! I would be happy with a "Loot" command option that worked like Medic or Rescue.
Set one person with a big back pack and have them automatically gather stuff till they can't fit any more in the bag.

As for conversations I agree again. I started playing with them. Got the diplomat to function fairly well. I even added a conversation to all humans so that you can talk to anyone. But they currently only say "WHAT?".
But it does show that we could start adding more to it. I would be really happy if they added the ability to create "quests" so you could talk to someone and they would tell you to look for "Jim" in Catun, and Jim would tell you where to fine a stash of cash he dropped if you can get past the cannibals that were chasing him. We could create our own mods with plots in them and then everyone could be writing story lines for Kenshi. Oh guess I have gone totally off topic now. But you could make Jim a shek who will only talk to other shek with a high enough racial bonus! See what I did there.

[Abek]

But it does show that we could start adding more to it. I would be really happy if they added the ability to create "quests" so you could talk to someone and they would tell you to look for "Jim" in Catun, and Jim would tell you where to fine a stash of cash he dropped if you can get past the cannibals that were chasing him. We could create our own mods with plots in them and then everyone could be writing story lines for Kenshi. Oh guess I have gone totally off topic now. But you could make Jim a shek who will only talk to other shek with a high enough racial bonus! See what I did there.

Make a new request thread on Quests, bro! I want these so badly too. I especially want the ability to become a questgiver! Suppose those wandering Adventurer's also accepted quests from you in exchange for caps!

Some jerk bandit boss knocks out a couple of your new recruits? No biggie, your captain sets a damn bounty on his head and Adventurer's Guild members drag him back to you.

[dietpills42]

-snippity snip-

One example would be athletics. As the human body really was built for running.

I can get behind that, seeing as we have some tribes in Africa that hunt by literally tiring the animal out with our superior energy management. We don't actually run faster, we're just smart about conserving energy, differently than the animal who just sprints their way out of danger.

Maybe humans should have some sort of lower food consumption if hunger is implemented.

[A Space Ostrich]

It's not just some tribes in Africa. The standard hunting method for all of pre-history was persistence hunting. The human body is specialised towards one specific task, long distance running. Our bipedal gait allows for incredibly efficient running, and also supports a larger brain, chasing animals to death is what we're built to do.

The reason humans tamed and began working with wolves so quickly is that they are one of the few animals that share our hunting method. Wolves aren't as good at it as us, but they have a pack structure, are relatively easily trained, and other than us, they're the best at persistence hunting.

[dada]

I agree with OP in that the racial bonuses seem a bit odd and arbitrary.
I think, every advantage should come with a disadvantage in the same category. So, i think speed up dexterity-gain should come with a strengh-gain penalty, as more mass is less agile - this might not be true in any case, but i think you can´t "balance" more dexterity with.. less farming. Why should i take a greenlander instead of a scorchlander? Fighting /surviving (dexterity, stealth, athletics, health) is far more vital then working (farming, etc).
It should be more like +20% stealth / -20% toughness, +20% sience / -20% labouring, +20% health / -20% dexterity..
It seems ok with the shek, but the scorchlanders bonuses and malus are just ..benevolent.

I´m ok with a certain imbalance between the races. But, to repeat myself, every advantage should come with a disadvantage in the same category

[Mattk50]

You guys should be aware that all the listed attributes are not the entirety of advantages and disadvantages for each race. It doesnt, for example, list the combat speed differences, running speed differences, body part hit chance differences, natural armor differences, bleeding rate differences(skeleton does list no bleed but others have various multipliers) or of course the available armor slot differences. Hive are actually the fastest characters in the game at high athletics, but scorcchlanders have higher minimum speed and can also wear sandals which eventually rbings them ahead. Hive do have faster attack speed though hive soldiers don't. IMO hive princes/workers are better fighters than hive soldiers because they can wear helmets and attack fatser despite the HP debuff.

One of the most significant differences between races right now is their food cost. Hive characters use half (.45-.6 depending on which subrace) the food as humans do, meaning their maintence costs are much lower and you can have a lot more of them. Shek characters use 1.2x(20% more) the food, reflecting their extra hp and resist. Scorchlanders sit at .9. Skeletons of course use 0 but have much more drastic tradeoffs, specificly very high repair costs and very few usable armor peices, right now i think the main thing that stops hive from being too good as squad members is the character and hiring limits, sure it might be nice to have twice as many characters for the same food, but when limits are present you start to need to consider effeciency of armoring them all and even if they cost 80% more food, 30 shek warriors might be more effective than 30 hive warriors even though hives have the 1.2x(skeletons have .9, sheks and humans have 1.0) combat speed bonus (though current stagger mechanics make the 30% combat speed bonus much more important than it would otherwise be)

So most of this thread's discussion about the specifics so far has been without the full info, i've noticed. Its also worth mentioning that the xp bonuses really only matter when skills are low; once you get up to high skill numbers you are approaching the 99 softcap either way, it only slightly matters how much xp it takes to get slightly further.

[Zeal]

I do agree that humans should have no bonuses nor penalties, as that is what we as players know best as "average". But I don't agree humans should be assumed to be the epitome of intelligent learning.. That's only based on our life exposure in opposition to non-sentient creatures... We could be the most stupid sentient species in the universe, but at this point, we wouldn't know it. And i'd totally believe it.. Humans can be really disappointing sometimes..

Yes, we can adapt. But what's with the assumption that other sentient species can't? You did say that you don't really have any other humanoids in life to compare us to though..

[Abek]

You guys should be aware that all the listed attributes are not the entirety of advantages and disadvantages for each race. It doesnt, for example, list the combat speed differences, running speed differences, body part hit chance differences, natural armor differences, bleeding rate differences(skeleton does list no bleed but others have various multipliers) or of course the available armor slot differences. Hive are actually the fastest characters in the game at high athletics, but scorcchlanders have higher minimum speed and can also wear sandals which eventually rbings them ahead. Hive do have faster attack speed though hive soldiers don't. IMO hive princes/workers are better fighters than hive soldiers because they can wear helmets and attack fatser despite the HP debuff.

One of the most significant differences between races right now is their food cost. Hive characters use half (.45-.6 depending on which subrace) the food as humans do, meaning their maintence costs are much lower and you can have a lot more of them. Shek characters use 1.2x(20% more) the food, reflecting their extra hp and resist. Scorchlanders sit at .9. Skeletons of course use 0 but have much more drastic tradeoffs, specificly very high repair costs and very few usable armor peices, right now i think the main thing that stops hive from being too good as squad members is the character and hiring limits, sure it might be nice to have twice as many characters for the same food, but when limits are present you start to need to consider effeciency of armoring them all and even if they cost 80% more food, 30 shek warriors might be more effective than 30 hive warriors even though hives have the 1.2x(skeletons have .9, sheks and humans have 1.0) combat speed bonus (though current stagger mechanics make the 30% combat speed bonus much more important than it would otherwise be)

So most of this thread's discussion about the specifics so far has been without the full info, i've noticed. Its also worth mentioning that the xp bonuses really only matter when skills are low; once you get up to high skill numbers you are approaching the 99 softcap either way, it only slightly matters how much xp it takes to get slightly further.

Bear in mind, our discussion was pre-Beta. Thanks for updating the info. That's a lot to consider.