I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but to me I believe the 'automatic research bench' is... kind of game breaking in a way. All I need to do is have one guy researching straight for that research bench, get the bench, build it, and than just let it run while I'm out doing whatever it is I feel like doing, and already have everything researched without breaking a sweat.
With that, there is no point in researching, it makes it out to be just a waste of time. The skill Science on units would be pointless as well (even though there's a possibility of it being used elsewhere).
I believe research should be based on the units researching, using the bench. Their science skill depends on how quickly the tech is learned. The advanced benches should be a necessity, to research higher techs which is a good idea so far, just it SHOULD be manned no matter what. maybe the advanced benches requiring more scientists and a minimum skill level to use the higher benches, making researching actually something to work towards to and a reason for science skills. maybe science skills can go up slowly when operating equipment, and faster when just working on a research bench, either from researching itself or just from an action 'tinkering' at the bench? Just a thought.
I have no idea if this has already been discussed, but i do apologize if it has, because I do understand this game is still in testing and not being polished so to say, but I just figured I would at least mention it on here in case of anything.
[Suggestion] Rebalance the Research bench
It's funny, I haven't played 0.39 yet (i'm just going to wait for 0.40) but I was thinking about this exact same thing. My problem isn't so much that it sounds too easy to do, but rather, permanently unlocking tech seems somewhat static. Once you have all the techs, that's it, you have them all forever and research becomes pointless. However, the solution to my issue is the same as the solution to yours.
The first thing that comes to mind is that enemy factions may wish to assasinate one of your specific characters to prevent him/her utilizing their knowledge for the advantage of your faction (maybe that character crafts awesome armour for your units). In this case the reverse would also be true, the player may want to kill a specific npc to prevent that npc improving their faction.
Secondly this opens up avenues for teaching. The character that learned a tech could speed up the process of research for any other character in the players faction significantly. But this could also mean the player could send one of their characters to a teacher in a town to learn the tech quicker if it's not already researched. Which would also mean that the player could make one of their characters a professional teacher, teaching members of neutral factions and allied factions.
But I digress, your idea of individual characters learning a tech instead of it becoming known to the entire faction, means that researched techs aren't definatley permanent and can be lost. But at the same time, it avoids any annoying mechanics like tech knowledge deteriorating for no reason.
If I understand this correctly, that is to say, only the character that did the researching can utilize the tech (for example smelt better swords)? If that's right, than I agree completely. Not only does this solve the issue of all research forever becoming completed I think it also opens up some pretty dynamic possibilities within the Kenshi universe.Ardanza wrote: I believe research should be based on the units researching, using the bench.
The first thing that comes to mind is that enemy factions may wish to assasinate one of your specific characters to prevent him/her utilizing their knowledge for the advantage of your faction (maybe that character crafts awesome armour for your units). In this case the reverse would also be true, the player may want to kill a specific npc to prevent that npc improving their faction.
Secondly this opens up avenues for teaching. The character that learned a tech could speed up the process of research for any other character in the players faction significantly. But this could also mean the player could send one of their characters to a teacher in a town to learn the tech quicker if it's not already researched. Which would also mean that the player could make one of their characters a professional teacher, teaching members of neutral factions and allied factions.
But I digress, your idea of individual characters learning a tech instead of it becoming known to the entire faction, means that researched techs aren't definatley permanent and can be lost. But at the same time, it avoids any annoying mechanics like tech knowledge deteriorating for no reason.
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Novella1st
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:39 pm
Keeping research interesting is a challenge, and frankly I can't think of any games where tech/research wasn't setup in a stagnant "research until you get it and then you have it forever" kind of way.
Making research more dynamic could be interesting, but also a bit of a balancing act. You could have it so that each individual can only build/make what they have personally researched, but that kind of turns research into additional requirement for anyone who also does engineering. You could try making tech more interesting by forcing tech unlocks to also have some kind of building/resource requirement so that the techs feel like a challenge, but that really only slows things down.
Optimally, I personally would enjoy some kind of balance between permanent tech unlocks and having setbacks from losing my research team. Maybe you can research tech and it stays unlocked, but can only be built if at least one person in the outpost has a high enough science skill to fit the requirements (he doesn't have to do the building, just be there). Another idea might be to have permanent base building tech unlocks, but building/equipment upgrades can only happen with blueprints, which can only be made by scientists who have enough science skill and the blueprints are consumed on use.
I think in the long run, there are some interesting directions that research can take to make it a more enjoyable and engaging aspect of the game, but it probably isn't a priority at this time.
Making research more dynamic could be interesting, but also a bit of a balancing act. You could have it so that each individual can only build/make what they have personally researched, but that kind of turns research into additional requirement for anyone who also does engineering. You could try making tech more interesting by forcing tech unlocks to also have some kind of building/resource requirement so that the techs feel like a challenge, but that really only slows things down.
Optimally, I personally would enjoy some kind of balance between permanent tech unlocks and having setbacks from losing my research team. Maybe you can research tech and it stays unlocked, but can only be built if at least one person in the outpost has a high enough science skill to fit the requirements (he doesn't have to do the building, just be there). Another idea might be to have permanent base building tech unlocks, but building/equipment upgrades can only happen with blueprints, which can only be made by scientists who have enough science skill and the blueprints are consumed on use.
I think in the long run, there are some interesting directions that research can take to make it a more enjoyable and engaging aspect of the game, but it probably isn't a priority at this time.
i agree that benches should be manned. there was a similar discussion about this u can find here
http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... 823#p18823
in the kenshi wiki it says about science skills "Affects skill at prospecting, and researching new technologies." so maybe all this will be implemented in the future, lets hope.
http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... 823#p18823
in the kenshi wiki it says about science skills "Affects skill at prospecting, and researching new technologies." so maybe all this will be implemented in the future, lets hope.
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Hellhound1
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:16 pm
I like the idea of only being able to build buildings that your highest level science guy has researched. Once he's dead, you drop down to the next highest level science guy, possibly losing some building options.
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Clawdius Talonious
- Posts: 540
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:35 am
I'd like to see the Science skill be useful in a variety of applications. If prospecting for rare materials in far off corners of the land is one of them, that will be great. However it would be interesting to see, once dismemberment and robotic prosthesis are implemented, science skill as well as medical skill affect the outcome of such a surgery. It would be rather difficult to add some types of "quirky" behavior to robotic prosthesis, but a generalized loss of some skill points, or something along those lines could be interesting. Potentially a character who had their limbs replaced by your doctor who has 70 medical skill and 100 science could add additional damage to attacks or something along those lines.
Science skill could also affect the ability of a character to scavenge. The trick will be how we wind up having to go about training members of a new squad. For example, will we be able to set up dojos and classrooms where our characters will go and fight dummies until they get to a point where sparring is the best way to improve their skills? Will we be able to set up doctors and science oriented characters in classrooms where they can improve new recruits talents in those fields? I for one think that being able to set a new recruits job to "Combat Trainee" or "Medical Trainee" or what have you wouldn't be terribly difficult to implement but I suppose Chris is the only one who really knows how tough such a thing would be to do with his engine.
Science skill could also affect the ability of a character to scavenge. The trick will be how we wind up having to go about training members of a new squad. For example, will we be able to set up dojos and classrooms where our characters will go and fight dummies until they get to a point where sparring is the best way to improve their skills? Will we be able to set up doctors and science oriented characters in classrooms where they can improve new recruits talents in those fields? I for one think that being able to set a new recruits job to "Combat Trainee" or "Medical Trainee" or what have you wouldn't be terribly difficult to implement but I suppose Chris is the only one who really knows how tough such a thing would be to do with his engine.
Actually, That is not exactly what I was thinking, BUT yes, what you are saying I completely agree with there, but personally I believe in order to build a building, that unit should have the science (knowledge) in order to construct it, if not, can't be built, BUT have the technology already "unlocked", as someone else just stated before me. But to answer that question, no, that's actually not what I was actually thinking, but totally like your idea a lot better, and a few of the posts before me.RebD wrote:If I understand this correctly, that is to say, only the character that did the researching can utilize the tech (for example smelt better swords)? If that's right, than I agree completely. Not only does this solve the issue of all research forever becoming completed I think it also opens up some pretty dynamic possibilities within the Kenshi universe.
Windows 8 64-Bit
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I really like both of those ideas because as you said, the problem with my idea is it kind of makes the engineering skill useless, and either of those ideas would solve that.Novella1st wrote:
Optimally, I personally would enjoy some kind of balance between permanent tech unlocks and having setbacks from losing my research team. Maybe you can research tech and it stays unlocked, but can only be built if at least one person in the outpost has a high enough science skill to fit the requirements (he doesn't have to do the building, just be there). Another idea might be to have permanent base building tech unlocks, but building/equipment upgrades can only happen with blueprints, which can only be made by scientists who have enough science skill and the blueprints are consumed on use.
The blueprint idea is quite interesting in particular, because that way factions could buy/sell blueprints for a one time use. This could be particularly useful if you only want to build a certain building once. It could aslo mean factions might raid another faction if they know they keep blueprints of buildings they need. Although they would have to be very expensive to buy and the downside of selling a bunch (aside from the fact you'd get less money each time) is that rival factions might buy them and than everyone will have your hard earned tech.
Although a well fortified base could probably contain all the blueprints they ever need making losing the tech almost impossible (if the scientist dies, they will still have a ton of blueprints to use), it would still feel far less static.
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TheVagabond
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:49 am
Readers,
Lets take a broad look at what goes into making something.
Step One: The idea
Step Two: Getting the Tools
Step Three: Getting the Materials
Step Four: Someone makes the plan to bring the idea to life.
Step five: the aforementioned someone makes it (maybe with the help of additional peons)
As it stands, it doesn't matter what the idea is, the same guy can raise one skill to learn how to do anything and magically give the knowledge to everyone in the group.
In real life, people aren't generally brilliant in several different fields. I don't know of anyone who is a architect, metallurgist/blacksmith, power system designer, geologist/miner, and farmer.
Maybe there needs to be specialized researchers? Set up the research so it is a tree, each branch requiring someone specialized to -initiate- the research. All your other researchers can contribute to the specialized individual's research.
For example: You have a researcher named Bob who is specialized in power systems. You want to research improved wind turbines, it requires 35 skill, and Bob has 37. Bob initiates the research project, and you pull William (your agricultural specialist) as well as Jimmy (your Architectural Specialist) over to help Bob out. By adding William and Jimmy to the research project, it goes faster. They might not be specialized in the field, but they are smart guys in their own right and understand the process of R&D.
The specializations could be set up like sub-skills. You have your standard research/science skill which is used to determine research speed across all projects, and your specialization sub-skill is used to determine what research you can initiate within your specialization.
As per a previous suggestion, there could be training. The easiest way I see this working is by setting up a type of assistant type deal. The assistants follow the researcher around, gaining research/science skill normally, but specialization at half the normal speed (since only the person who initiates the research would get the experience in the specialization eg. Bob's specialization sub-skill level will raise while researching improved wind turbines, but William and Jimmy only gain research/science skill). This would allow you to have back-ups in case your head researcher in a specific field is ganked.
All research is held within the heads of the researchers. Researchers work with the engineers by either being on site during the construction process, or by giving them schematics/recipes/ect. (a research project in it's own right?). Schematics/Blueprints/Recipes would be a way to preserve knowledge in case of death, and a way for less experienced researchers of a specific field to study as well (for example, in case of their mentor's death). These "Instruction manuals" would have a duration. Whether it is a certain amount of time, or uses.
All I have right now, sorry...
Cheers,
Michael
Lets take a broad look at what goes into making something.
Step One: The idea
Step Two: Getting the Tools
Step Three: Getting the Materials
Step Four: Someone makes the plan to bring the idea to life.
Step five: the aforementioned someone makes it (maybe with the help of additional peons)
As it stands, it doesn't matter what the idea is, the same guy can raise one skill to learn how to do anything and magically give the knowledge to everyone in the group.
In real life, people aren't generally brilliant in several different fields. I don't know of anyone who is a architect, metallurgist/blacksmith, power system designer, geologist/miner, and farmer.
Maybe there needs to be specialized researchers? Set up the research so it is a tree, each branch requiring someone specialized to -initiate- the research. All your other researchers can contribute to the specialized individual's research.
For example: You have a researcher named Bob who is specialized in power systems. You want to research improved wind turbines, it requires 35 skill, and Bob has 37. Bob initiates the research project, and you pull William (your agricultural specialist) as well as Jimmy (your Architectural Specialist) over to help Bob out. By adding William and Jimmy to the research project, it goes faster. They might not be specialized in the field, but they are smart guys in their own right and understand the process of R&D.
The specializations could be set up like sub-skills. You have your standard research/science skill which is used to determine research speed across all projects, and your specialization sub-skill is used to determine what research you can initiate within your specialization.
As per a previous suggestion, there could be training. The easiest way I see this working is by setting up a type of assistant type deal. The assistants follow the researcher around, gaining research/science skill normally, but specialization at half the normal speed (since only the person who initiates the research would get the experience in the specialization eg. Bob's specialization sub-skill level will raise while researching improved wind turbines, but William and Jimmy only gain research/science skill). This would allow you to have back-ups in case your head researcher in a specific field is ganked.
All research is held within the heads of the researchers. Researchers work with the engineers by either being on site during the construction process, or by giving them schematics/recipes/ect. (a research project in it's own right?). Schematics/Blueprints/Recipes would be a way to preserve knowledge in case of death, and a way for less experienced researchers of a specific field to study as well (for example, in case of their mentor's death). These "Instruction manuals" would have a duration. Whether it is a certain amount of time, or uses.
All I have right now, sorry...
Cheers,
Michael
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pirdulitis
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:34 am
As i have said in a different thread i believe that the idea of having scientists learn certain techs and keep it in their head would mean that there is a reason to be careful of where you place him so that you avoid accidental death.
This can also be more fun if you could capture scientists from other factions and then force them into giving up certain techs to your main scientist or instructions that can then be used to give your faction techs that you may not be able to research yourself.
And to make tech more challenging/interesting is make certain things technologies locked until you either find a manual that describes it or you have to find a teacher of sorts that can teach you the basics of that tech and then you can research it further on sort of like MGS: Peace Walker
This can also be more fun if you could capture scientists from other factions and then force them into giving up certain techs to your main scientist or instructions that can then be used to give your faction techs that you may not be able to research yourself.
And to make tech more challenging/interesting is make certain things technologies locked until you either find a manual that describes it or you have to find a teacher of sorts that can teach you the basics of that tech and then you can research it further on sort of like MGS: Peace Walker
RebD wrote:It's funny, I haven't played 0.39 yet (i'm just going to wait for 0.40) but I was thinking about this exact same thing. My problem isn't so much that it sounds too easy to do, but rather, permanently unlocking tech seems somewhat static. Once you have all the techs, that's it, you have them all forever and research becomes pointless. However, the solution to my issue is the same as the solution to yours.
If I understand this correctly, that is to say, only the character that did the researching can utilize the tech (for example smelt better swords)? If that's right, than I agree completely. Not only does this solve the issue of all research forever becoming completed I think it also opens up some pretty dynamic possibilities within the Kenshi universe.Ardanza wrote: I believe research should be based on the units researching, using the bench.
The first thing that comes to mind is that enemy factions may wish to assasinate one of your specific characters to prevent him/her utilizing their knowledge for the advantage of your faction (maybe that character crafts awesome armour for your units). In this case the reverse would also be true, the player may want to kill a specific npc to prevent that npc improving their faction.
Secondly this opens up avenues for teaching. The character that learned a tech could speed up the process of research for any other character in the players faction significantly. But this could also mean the player could send one of their characters to a teacher in a town to learn the tech quicker if it's not already researched. Which would also mean that the player could make one of their characters a professional teacher, teaching members of neutral factions and allied factions.
But I digress, your idea of individual characters learning a tech instead of it becoming known to the entire faction, means that researched techs aren't definatley permanent and can be lost. But at the same time, it avoids any annoying mechanics like tech knowledge deteriorating for no reason.
si i figure why not make it so you could lose tech b losing the sintist that researched it so that way you would really have to guard your sintists like say two were used for a tech then if one was taken or killed you would lose haf of what you researched
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lavagninogm
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:29 pm
I have nothing really to add but I just want to say I love this idea. It gives the whole idea of defending each one of your people equally and everyone is an important asset, from a lowly skilled farmer to the highest level scientist . In a post apocalyptic or barren world every person would be valuable in their own right, ESPECIALLY scientists. If your town gets raided I think a player should legitimately feel the impact of each loss, weather it be to slavers or death.
This is going to sound really complicated but it isn't.
The science skill helps with surveying and researching. A bench is required to do any kind of researching. The type of bench that is used will use a multiplier to effect the user's science skill. Depending on what is being researched, the technology may take less time based on the subskill (can be any other skill except science itself) and difficulty factors.
While researching the type of research will take as long as the following formula:
normal time to research / [ ( science skill level * workbench multiplier + subskill level * workbench multipler / 2) / difficulty factor] = actual time to research
Examples!
Technology: Armor Storage
Normal time to research = 6 hours (Tough essay requiring some research)
Difficulty factor: 5 (Eat)
Science skill level: 20 (Someone who is kinda good)
Workbench multiplier: 1 (normal bench but not the starting bench)
Subskill: 20 (Someone who is kinda good)
6hr / [ ( 20 * 1 + 20 * 1 / 2 ) / 5 ] = 1 hr
Adjusting the difficulty we can see that something that is 100 difficulty factor would take:
6hr / [ ( 20 * 1 + 20 * 1 / 2 ) / 100 ] = 20 hr
That same person with twice the science and subskill will take:
6hr / [ ( 40 * 1 + 40 * 1 / 2 ) / 100 ] = 10 hour
Without the subskill: 15 hours
Each tier can also cut down the skill level by % or certain number on the skill causing a skill requirement naturally.
The science skill helps with surveying and researching. A bench is required to do any kind of researching. The type of bench that is used will use a multiplier to effect the user's science skill. Depending on what is being researched, the technology may take less time based on the subskill (can be any other skill except science itself) and difficulty factors.
While researching the type of research will take as long as the following formula:
normal time to research / [ ( science skill level * workbench multiplier + subskill level * workbench multipler / 2) / difficulty factor] = actual time to research
Examples!
Technology: Armor Storage
Normal time to research = 6 hours (Tough essay requiring some research)
Difficulty factor: 5 (Eat)
Science skill level: 20 (Someone who is kinda good)
Workbench multiplier: 1 (normal bench but not the starting bench)
Subskill: 20 (Someone who is kinda good)
6hr / [ ( 20 * 1 + 20 * 1 / 2 ) / 5 ] = 1 hr
Adjusting the difficulty we can see that something that is 100 difficulty factor would take:
6hr / [ ( 20 * 1 + 20 * 1 / 2 ) / 100 ] = 20 hr
That same person with twice the science and subskill will take:
6hr / [ ( 40 * 1 + 40 * 1 / 2 ) / 100 ] = 10 hour
Without the subskill: 15 hours
Each tier can also cut down the skill level by % or certain number on the skill causing a skill requirement naturally.
Not sure if this is on-topic with you guys, and I probably haven't played the game as much but why not just make it that the adv. research bench uses up power from a generator (if it doesn't do that already), make it slower than any person with a decent science skill level (to provide a sort of balance) and that it is used to research adv. research bench only things that have to be automated. But when someone mans the bench they have another list of research options to do.
Also I'm not really sure about generators but do they require the use of some material? If they do make it so that if its hooked up to an adv. research bench it uses way more power then most things just so its a bit more balanced and that if you take everyone out to go buy something or to go to another town for no reason that they have to come back eventually for material refills. I wouldn't mind that idea and frankly I actually thought they the adv. research bench made more adv things in the first place lol
well I guess its just my idea though hopefully it sparks something for updates in the game.
Also I'm not really sure about generators but do they require the use of some material? If they do make it so that if its hooked up to an adv. research bench it uses way more power then most things just so its a bit more balanced and that if you take everyone out to go buy something or to go to another town for no reason that they have to come back eventually for material refills. I wouldn't mind that idea and frankly I actually thought they the adv. research bench made more adv things in the first place lol
well I guess its just my idea though hopefully it sparks something for updates in the game.
Weapon Concepts
So far I'm working on Buster Sword, Auron's Masamune, Bows, Mace, Dark Knight Halbred, Zangetsu, Guts' Dragon Slayer, Zweihander, Baselard, Daedric Two handed axe, and more to follow.
So far I'm working on Buster Sword, Auron's Masamune, Bows, Mace, Dark Knight Halbred, Zangetsu, Guts' Dragon Slayer, Zweihander, Baselard, Daedric Two handed axe, and more to follow.
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XDragonCryX
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:39 am
i don't see why you guys are complaining, i can't seem to get mine to start automated, ive tried placinga generator nearby and it still wont work.... as it is i hate having it manned because when my outpost gets attacked i want it to continue to research, without having to lock my researcher in the house
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