Comment/Opinion about the Worldsize in Gamedesign Blog

[Kajan451]

I know i am "late" to the party, i am not sure if there has been already a discussion about it, and quite frankly the Forums got a bit full. I used the search function about world size but even though it gave me over 200 entries, i discounted everything that happened before the blog post found in the Gamedesign page.

I would like to adress or rather comment this, share my opinion of the matter:

Originally I was going to expand the world map to be 4x bigger, but I might reduce that now. As the game has a focus on building static structures that's going to take away the practicality of long-range exploration, you aren't going to want to travel vast distances away from your home base. A smaller, denser map will also mean if your characters are split up across the map they can run to each-others aid a bit easier, so you can send out rescue parties, reinforce your HQ during attacks etc. It will still be a bit bigger than the current map however.

I personally would like the world map to be that big. Even if it seems like wasted effort, because we might remain in close or closer proximity to our own installations, i also like the idea of how much "choice" and freedom we would get from a place that wast.

I mean in a smaller, denser map, it might end up like walking for half a day gets you to each and every corner of the world from the center. There might not be any exploration involved. Every single race will be within walking distance, with territories being rather small.

I really would love to see an open world be really a "world" for a change. Even if that world is just the size of Japan or England, preferably it would be the size of Europ or Africa, but i probably am asking to much already.

At the very least i do love the idea of being able to trade in different places, have territories really seem like their own countries with a bunch of towns and villages to really trade with. And maybe explore the world, find a place you like. Visually like. Maybe including a waterfall or two..

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with vast open spaces which only have vegitation and some animals.

And when i take the other point made previously into account:

The different map zones may have rare resources that are vital to certain areas of research. This might force you to build a protected mining outpost to further your research, rather than one single mega-base.

Then i would love to have the ability to search around a really huge map, instead of everything being within walking distance. I understand the points being made and being able to send help from all over the place, but i also like the idea of setting up multiple big bases over huge areas.

If i take minecraft for example. Yeah i usually start out with building myself a big base which has everything, but there is a limit to what you can do after its set up. Once you have that megabase and have the people to defend it and be a full fledged town and institution on its own.. then what? Start over?

That is actually the point where i would love to go exploring. Knowing my base will be there when i get back. Maybe discover some nice rare ressource depots. Maybe they get random generated in the end. Or just find myself a visually appealing area where i am like "I think i want another base here, this looks nice".

I like the idea of it being a sandbox in which i potentially could found my own city. NPCs will move in because they might find work and protection by my armed forces, but if you extend that.. at some point places like that probably get a live of their own. Which is really a great thing, but also eventually it won't need the player anymore. It will have enough guards and people wanting to take arms to defend it. Being a city on its own, at which point the player is free to do whatever.

With a small map however i am worried that there would be like 2 or 3 spots where you actually could build something like that and then you end up with a "now what?" situation. I ended up there in Minecraft a couple times and usually the answer is: Move on and find a new location or start a mega project.

In X3 i had the same thing. I started building bases and construction lines, traderoutes... and eventually i started to claim a sector for myself and build a mega base. A base that was completely selfsustaining and could produce every ship known to man without outside influence, every good known to man... turrets protecting jump gates, sector patrols... and yeah... eventually you go exploring again.

Anyway.. i think a much larger map would offer mutliple benefits. And one of them would definately be "not everything is in walking distance". It takes a much longer time to see everything. And you won't always have your stuff at the same location. Every player building their city in more or less the same area. It would allow much more versitality, in my opinion. I could decide to go and want to build it in a forrest somewhere far north or to the east or whatever. Maybe getting the option to sell maps to NPCs, and having still undiscovered areas.

I do understand that a larger map means more work. More space to be filled, but i've been one of the guys that walked everywhere in games like Fallout3 or Oblivion, walking through lush forrest areas. I even like Arma 2s large, empty maps. Heck DayZ felt like one of the best looking hiking simulators i ever saw. I personally like these large areas, where it doesn't feel like you trip 3 times and are at the next city.

The way it is right now seems really dense already and i personally kinda dislike that.


Anyway, i just wanted to share my opinion on the matter. Its probably old news and done for already

[Rage735]

Gotta say I agree with this.

I'd love to be able to establish a few camps around the world and just go on expeditions raiding all the cities and seeing what pops up along the way - one of the things I enjoyed about Skyrim.

[RebelMonarch]

Brand new here and happy to be around.

I do agree with you about the worldsize but I think it would make more sense for the map to start out smaller, before being expanded, in order to make the initial task of finalizing the game, at least for a first iteration, a bit more manageable.

[Halberd]

Posting as a new player it feels weird having people all over the desert. Makes it not feel much like a desert and takes away some of the immersion.

I haven't played the game enough though so I'll more than likely have a different opinion after playing the game some more.

[Jake_j_a]

it feels weird having people all over the desert. Makes it not feel much like a desert and takes away some of the immersion.

It dose a little at first, but after your first few hikes to the eastern towns you'll be glad for it. Particularly if you have wounded legs or are heavily loaded, traveling would be very boring if it were more 'realistic' for the desert setting. Also, the desert is just a placeholder, there will be more varied terrain, though personally I rather hope the dessert is still the primary land type, it really adds to the 'desperate survival' aspect.

As far as map size goes, I'm really not sure, I mean it dose state that the map will be bigger then the current map, which already offers a multitude of possible locations to build. He's stated that it is a fully active world, to me, that means the AI bots are always active, even if the player is not in the region. The drain on a computers resources would be tremendous, even on a smaller map, thats why almost all free-roaming rpg games use a static game world where 'tiles' are 'activated' when the player approaches them. Play fallout 3 a few times and you'll see what I mean.
If he can achieve this fully active world, I really dont care how big the map is, if he can do it with a bigger map, great, if the map has to be smaller though, I'm ok with that too. Just as long as the world dose not revolve around my player.

[Kajan451]

Its not supposed to be a desert setting. It just looks like a Desert because the game is in alpha and Chris didn't put the biodomes in yet.

Read the Game Design Blog (you get there from the main page) about his plans and all that.

Brand new here and happy to be around.

I do agree with you about the worldsize but I think it would make more sense for the map to start out smaller, before being expanded, in order to make the initial task of finalizing the game, at least for a first iteration, a bit more manageable.

Oh i didn't mean to say he should change it right now. I adressed Chris blog post in which he said that he things its a good idea not to expand it to 4 times the size as he originally planned it to be expanded to. And i simply wanted to share my opinion and maybe he reads it and overthinks his position when he sees people actually like the idea of the map being larger, even if it means you won't use all of the map all the time.

[lavagninogm]

I can see both sides of his debate honestly. I think it makes sense to keep the map smaller while the game is still going through major development. It would slow down much of the early proccess to extend the map too early.

With that being said I really hope that a huge map is the over all goal here. I love the idea of building a main base and the needin to venture off in far away lands to build outposts for trade/recources. Part of the thrill of building and exploring that far out is exactly that, you can't just run back and forth from your main base to your outpost constantly. I want my outpost to feel cut of from immediate help, I want the constant fear and strategic thinking it takes to set up a colony. It would be an amazing part of he game if you lost an outpost due to bad relations with he local civilizations. It would give you a need to go back out a try again... With more swords and avenge your fallen heroes.

That's my 2 cents. I would love this game to give me those types of experiences. Kenshi has huge potential, and I think Chris can pull it off

[gamerphate]

He could always use the Mortal Online approach. Build one major continent that has a little bit of everything in it. Fresh it out and complete it. Then later add a new continent, thus adding in the features of water/sea travel and such which links the two areas together. Ultima Online followed this approach too.

[Tolwrath]

What I'm personally hoping for, since we know ultimately the cities will be randomly generated, is that the map itself is randomly generated (maybe with some sort of keyword input option to eliminate randomness for people who want that option). If we have a randomly generated map, then it wouldn't be too hard to expand the size of the generated map. And even if the map isn't randomly generated, the city generation will allow us to mod in a larger map without too much trouble.

[RebelMonarch]

Oh i didn't mean to say he should change it right now. I adressed Chris blog post in which he said that he things its a good idea not to expand it to 4 times the size as he originally planned it to be expanded to. And i simply wanted to share my opinion and maybe he reads it and overthinks his position when he sees people actually like the idea of the map being larger, even if it means you won't use all of the map all the time.

Didn't think you were saying "I demand change NAOW!" Just offering my two cents.

I was talking about the random generation with a friend of mine and I think we would almost both prefer it not to be, though obviously random generation can add replay value. And yes, having it be toggle-able would avoid that issue, but it seems like it might be a lot of work for something that might ultimately take away from the story of the world.

[Tolwrath]

I see what you mean, though what I meant wasn't so much a toggle. I meant it could generate a world based off of a string you enter, like minecraft's "seeds". Of course one of them would have to be "default". With this method you could replay a world you liked, or easily share with a friend. I know someone else had a feature request for being able to generate a "seed" based off the current world, so you could start a new faction while the AI controls your old one, or so a friend could play with at least a ghost of your faction.

Edit: and as far as AI processing requirements of a large world goes, yeah I know what you mean. Anyone who's played Dwarf Fortress can tell you increasing the map size causes an insane growth in processor power required.

[Someguy]

To the OP, thank you so much for creating this thread, and now rather than later. Was at the top of my to do list after feeling out the community. I feel rather... strongly about this.

Big long rant deleted. I'll say succinctly that Kenshi is not every cookie cutter, rent seeking title out of the mill these days, but this decision, if made on anything less than purely technical grounds smells of a large step away from that claim.

A new player used to the mill suffers a bit of shock entering Kenshi. Given the chance, it passes, and in it's place is a degree of liberation from console-think. So I, as a consumer of that very same tripe for over a decade now, very much hope this is about math rather than feelings.



Edit: <<DELETE>> Not a fan of fast travel or sacrificing features on the altar of eye-candy either.

And THAT ladies and gentlemen, is why we don't pause mid-post for a Guinness. I'm leaving now.

[RebelMonarch]

I see what you mean, though what I meant wasn't so much a toggle. I meant it could generate a world based off of a string you enter, like minecraft's "seeds". Of course one of them would have to be "default". With this method you could replay a world you liked, or easily share with a friend. I know someone else had a feature request for being able to generate a "seed" based off the current world, so you could start a new faction while the AI controls your old one, or so a friend could play with at least a ghost of your faction.

Edit: and as far as AI processing requirements of a large world goes, yeah I know what you mean. Anyone who's played Dwarf Fortress can tell you increasing the map size causes an insane growth in processor power required.

Hm. that'd be interesting. Though it seems like it would be weird with such a dynamically changing world like Kenshi.

[hugeknight]

Idk if this applies here but i used to play an open world space game and when you start you choose what size galaxy you want and it goes up to a crazy 100,000 planets and a crazy 50 factions albeit most factions start small like you with only one planet but eventually the all (including you) will have fleets upon fleets of ships raiding killing and taking over planets.

As you know that takes a huge amount of processing power because everything was generated so that you can zoom anywhere with no loading times and ai is active the whole time but some geek (read genius) made a mod that instead of generating everything graphically he made everything out of view into text so that your processor can still handle everything idk how he did and it confuses me but it made the game alot smoother even on smaller maps.

Anyway this was a couple of years back so i dont know what game i was playing....

[ViralBunny]

ive been sat here for 30 mins scratching my brain with a fork trying to recall the game you mean, i played it too and for the life of me i cant recall the name... silly memory.

[Asimov.42]

I have not seen the debate about forgetting the map idea, and make it a globe instead. Why is that?
It would make a huge world much smaller, since you don´t have to walk east to west, and then west to east. Combining that with the idea of a random created world, would be amazing.

[Tolwrath]

ive been sat here for 30 mins scratching my brain with a fork trying to recall the game you mean, i played it too and for the life of me i cant recall the name... silly memory.

I did some googling, and I'm fairly confident the game you're thinking of is Galactic Civilizations or its sequel. Also: now I need to check out Galactic Civilizations and/or StarDrive. Thanks.

[hugeknight]

the game i played was a kind of a mix of both you've mentioned but if i remember correctly its an indie game and was on kickstarter also a friend of mine used to swear by stardrive but i myself haven't tried it been falling behind in uni studies lately so trying to cut down on gaming......lol