Guns in Post-Apocalyptia

[Hasbinbad]

Hello good people, this is my first post on the Kenshi forums. I will try and make it useful, or at least interesting.

I think an important aspect of a post apocalyptic world is the idea that there is no widely enforceable code of laws. People take.

If you're farming hemp in the dust, Joe the Warlord isn't going to take much interest in you. You have nothing Joe can't obtain easier through other methods.

If, on the other hand, you've set up a complex mining operation encompassing a multitude of materials and refining processes and have now begun producing weapons grade (see aside below) explosives, Joe - my friend - is going to take an uncomfortable interest in your day to day doings. And Joe doesn't ask; Joe takes.

Joe is also just one warlord among many. This makes actually producing enough ammunition to successfully "wipe out" a small group of even a dozen people an extremely unhealthy proposition.

I think this is doable. I think that combations of tech could send up red flags and make you a target. Now you need more walls and more defenders to even consider a refinery, much less an manufacturing plant for ammunition. The second you start doing that; the bigger factions start asking questions.

I envision the mask dude from mad max constantly beseiging an invincible fortress from which no trade is possible; how do you even use this stuff?

All of what I just said is possible with the emergent-game dynamics Chris talks about with just a bit of faction work based on production / refinement facilities.

This also opens up all sorts of interesting smuggling and expansion options, especially if these buildingfactions were partially proximity based (i.e. you start drawing more interest if you have specific combinations of structures within X km of each other).

As an aside, gunpowder is a highly refined explosive, and questions of quality and consistency figure highly here. In our world, there are laws regulating this so that people don't get their faces blown off. In Kenshi, not so much. Also, if gunpowder gets wet, it's useless, so rain or even humidity can force the use of non-firearms weapons where waterproofing is an issue..

In conclusion, I think that it is easy to invent some fiction to outlaw firearms in this game, but isn't that what Chris is trying so desperately to avoid? Isn't the lack of guns just another random farmer with a giant gold "?" above his head? In a world where steel refineries are common enough to make one yourself in a few days of game time, not having the ability to make guns is every bit as absurd as that that farmer. That being said, I wouldn't be posting here in the first place if I didn't understand the allure of swordfights. So, think differently. Work with actual restraints to make gunfighting expensive, rare, and unreliable unless it's even more expensive and rare.

It's like Chris Rock said: "We don't need gun control; what we need is bullet control."

[Hasbinbad]

Just had another idea that some factions could be particularly poorly predisposed to people who make and use firearms. Sounds like excellent territory for zealotry.

[Marilous]

Eight pages right here.

http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... it=firearm

[Hasbinbad]

Yeah I definitely read that before posting. I wanted to step away from that conversation because they were talking about ways to employ the fiction crutch or how firearms / explosives would ruin the game rather than discussing using existing mechanics to incorporate those things in a way which retains playable swordfighting.

More than that, I would like to start a larger conversation about how the idea of the emergent game mechanics can influence the feasibility of certain aspects of the game.

I feel like that was pretty clear in the OP, but thank you for allowing me the opportunity to demystify my point.

[kain_lei]

I see your point, but this still could have gone with the other eight pages to reduce clutter, especially since it references the discussion. It's just another conjured reason why guns are handicapped in the game, which is exactly what employing a fiction crutch is.

As for the first part, your argument was very hard to follow. Since I didn't really get it, I won't comment on it.

As for the refinery and factory segment, though- The implications of introducing guns were also discussed in that thread. If massive production facilities with lots of guards were needed to make guns, complete with specialists that could understand the fine details of how to correctly manufacture a safe weapon, only the most powerful factions would have access to firearms. Because of this, they would be even more powerful, and would crush the player moments into a new game.

A final point, we don't even know if gunpowder exists. It could be that all we get for ranged weapons is stones and throwing daggers.

[ViralBunny]

metalsmithing is an obvious skill in the game, and gunpowder is relative easy to make with skill so arms manufacturing is always a possibility in this type of game setting, but id really like to think the game goes as far as arrows and turreted harpoons at best, keep small arms out of the game, saying that, theres no healing an arrow to the head... will be alot of save/load game action going on if anything other than throwing daggers is introduced with any realism.

[Hasbinbad]

Ok, so far I have 2 people telling me that my topic is unnecessary / duplicated when in reality they didn't even bother to read it, one person parroting his general feelings on the matter which strictly adheres to a preexisting narrative on the subject which I've now specifically stated I'd like to move away from, and nobody realizing that I'm trying to say something interesting here.

..oh The Internet..

[kain_lei]

So instead of being snarky, how about rephrase your point so I can understand it. The original post was all over the map- There were a lot of loose ends, many places where you didn't quite flesh out the jump you made in your logic, ect.

You got from stealing things, to motives for people to steal things, to seiges, to trade, and from there said it was best to make bullets hard to make instead of try to restrict guns. Sure, the final point's nice, but those things don't follow each other. Like I said, if there are large factions in the game, which there are, they would have the capabilities to make fortresses that would mass-produce bullets.

And by the way, yes, a new topic for this is unnecessary, if you had actually read the eight pages. Or maybe you did, and didn't digest it. I don't know, but it's all there already.

[Hasbinbad]

Is the entire Kenshi fan community like this jackass?

[Hammereds]

Hi there mate,

Firstly i want to try to help both of you understand each others points, i'm going to start with my assessment of the OP's arguement and then will attempt to vindicate the other poster as i believe he's been quite reasonable if missunderstood by the OP.

The start of your post talks about various implications of actions associated with technology, this can effectively be surmised as a threat/value mechanic associated to factions directly linked with technological developtment / physical development of buildings. The discussion even linked to guns/ammunition here is superfluous to the point which is the afformentioned bandits finding your various stuff a desirable option to raid. Personally i think within chris' plan this kind of thing is already intended to be included but regardless of that i like the idea.

The next part starts with the fiction of outlawing gun's, i'd like to address this quickly and state that this is not earth, its chris land. There is no necessity for guns to be outlawed if they don't in fact exist, gunpowder may be unatainable in the environment or simply due to its scarcity never been invented as a composition of elements.

The bit where i think you lost the other poster is the following, you attempt to link your conclusion of an unecessary fiction which as previously mentioned is baseless to a comparison of another unecessary fiction of sorts in the counter-emergent idea of the quest giver. This arguement isn't valid (in the philosophical sense, meaning that the conclusion doesn't follow the premise), and thats why your losing people here, you either need to flesh this out considerably explaining why you believe the existence of guns to be comparible to that emersion breaking notion of the quest giver.

My personal 2cents on guns involvement in the game, i think there is constraints that make firearms necessary and i'm not overly fussed about their inclusion, but i'm more than up for just taking chris' lead on this.

Now a few of your points in following posts seem a bit poorly researched, many of the posts on the aforementioned discussion do indeed tackle how to effectively integrate guns into the emergent world without ruining it etc, that is why some have suggested you post in there as the discussion excluding the bit about deplomatic threat is primarily centered in what would be considered a typical part of that topic.

The responders have mostly been fair in my opinion given your sometimes hostile responses i think that a mild comment about being snarky isn't so bad.

Now my personal views, i dislike the culture we have on the internet of being very dismissive rather than trying to understand someone, maybe partly due to the anonymity involved and your posts (the OP) fall more into this catagory than anyone elses in this topic. The reasons they have to suggest your arguement be placed in another thread are valid and the reasons for not understanding your arguement are clear, mainly because it is poorly formed and makes no sense.

Sorry for being critical but i hope you take onboard what i've said and reform your discussion either about the mechanics, or about the guns within the aforementioned topic. Also it would probably be best if we didn't continue this thread any further to avoid it turning sour.

Regards, Ben

p.s. sorry for any typo's/grammer, its late and i did this fast

[Hasbinbad]

By all means - instead of addressing what I was saying, continue following the pre-approved narrative of what your bandwagon is. There is obviously no room here for any sort of civil discussion outside the bounds of the party line.

Holy shit what a horrible introduction to your community, when all I wanted to do was talk about something.

Fuck the lot of you in the ear.

[ViralBunny]

Hello good people, this is my first post on the Kenshi forums. I will try and make it useful, or at least interesting.

I think an important aspect of a post apocalyptic world is the idea that there is no widely enforceable code of laws. People take.

If you're farming hemp in the dust, Joe the Warlord isn't going to take much interest in you. You have nothing Joe can't obtain easier through other methods.

If, on the other hand, you've set up a complex mining operation encompassing a multitude of materials and refining processes and have now begun producing weapons grade (see aside below) explosives, Joe - my friend - is going to take an uncomfortable interest in your day to day doings. And Joe doesn't ask; Joe takes.

Joe is also just one warlord among many. This makes actually producing enough ammunition to successfully "wipe out" a small group of even a dozen people an extremely unhealthy proposition.

I think this is doable. I think that combations of tech could send up red flags and make you a target. Now you need more walls and more defenders to even consider a refinery, much less an manufacturing plant for ammunition. The second you start doing that; the bigger factions start asking questions.

I envision the mask dude from mad max constantly beseiging an invincible fortress from which no trade is possible; how do you even use this stuff?

All of what I just said is possible with the emergent-game dynamics Chris talks about with just a bit of faction work based on production / refinement facilities.

This also opens up all sorts of interesting smuggling and expansion options, especially if these buildingfactions were partially proximity based (i.e. you start drawing more interest if you have specific combinations of structures within X km of each other).

As an aside, gunpowder is a highly refined explosive, and questions of quality and consistency figure highly here. In our world, there are laws regulating this so that people don't get their faces blown off. In Kenshi, not so much. Also, if gunpowder gets wet, it's useless, so rain or even humidity can force the use of non-firearms weapons where waterproofing is an issue..

In conclusion, I think that it is easy to invent some fiction to outlaw firearms in this game, but isn't that what Chris is trying so desperately to avoid? Isn't the lack of guns just another random farmer with a giant gold "?" above his head? In a world where steel refineries are common enough to make one yourself in a few days of game time, not having the ability to make guns is every bit as absurd as that that farmer. That being said, I wouldn't be posting here in the first place if I didn't understand the allure of swordfights. So, think differently. Work with actual restraints to make gunfighting expensive, rare, and unreliable unless it's even more expensive and rare.

It's like Chris Rock said: "We don't need gun control; what we need is bullet control."

I should probably start by apologising if im included in any of this, i have read the other thread before, I served my time as a forum and game moderator on lekool.com a games site for along time, I always comment on threads so its hard not to post still on threads that make me take notice be they condensed or extensive, I did find your comments for want of a better word, appropriate, to my predetermined disposition to where I rear my head to post comments. So im sorry if my comment was not to your liking, was simply my view. I see this has become a touchy thread but I would hate to think I had not responded appropriately before.


Your first point of "I think an important aspect of a post apocalyptic world is the idea that there is no widely enforceable code of laws. People take." Is interesting to me this game seems more of a bushido type of moral/social laws, so even post apocolyptical (spelling i know) world such as this would still be held to a code of honour of some kind and given the inclusion of police( i like to think more wild west sheriffs) there is an enforced social law system.

"If you're farming hemp in the dust, Joe the Warlord isn't going to take much interest in you. You have nothing Joe can't obtain easier through other methods.

If, on the other hand, you've set up a complex mining operation encompassing a multitude of materials and refining processes and have now begun producing weapons grade (see aside below) explosives, Joe - my friend - is going to take an uncomfortable interest in your day to day doings. And Joe doesn't ask; Joe takes."
I like this notion, to me, the bigger you get, I.E. as your production buildings mount up and the more outposts you make on the map the more notice you will get, I really do like the thought of not only attracting attention to your group of lads(soon lasses too i hope) you will also get raids sent to your camps to take "an offering" to bigger factions would be nice once walls are instigated again to see how few men you can use to fend off attacks would probably become an elitist obsession to me, as you say later mad max style (wont mention waterworld style as so few people liked that film, I did, and thats the kind of harpoon/arrow maybe an odd gun type of world I was commenting on earlier).

"Joe is also just one warlord among many. This makes actually producing enough ammunition to successfully "wipe out" a small group of even a dozen people an extremely unhealthy proposition.

I think this is doable. I think that combations of tech could send up red flags and make you a target. Now you need more walls and more defenders to even consider a refinery, much less an manufacturing plant for ammunition. The second you start doing that; the bigger factions start asking questions."
I would like to think once (if certain weapons you use on your enemies goes beyond swords (Say youve had ranged weapons a while and have not used or only use to defend an outpost of yours) you begin using ranged weapons then the other factions escalate too towards you as in some kind of karma system, rather than a "right now you can make ammunition your toast" more a "I respect your abilities and skill at production and am pleased you keep to a bushido code, go beyond that and we will go to war". Obviously bandits would be an exception, and the roaming starving mobs would maybe stick to sneak attacks at night on your bases to make them more of a problem than the flea bite they are now or would be later on towards finished game.

As to limiting ammunition limitation (ok sorry waterworld reference unavoidable) only keeping a small deposit of say sulphur on a map, hard to get to, untradable, and surrounded by bandits unable to make use of it, or zealots unwilling to use it (like waterworld(yes i know its all land and not all sea) having no resources other than whats about or floats to the surface, poor Kevin he really does go for post apocolypse(Spelling) alot maybe he will buy a copy of this game... maybe a voice over? that would be interesting) so only way to get it is to send in small tactical groups to avoid attention while you mine it under the nose of those in control of the deposit, large invasion impossible say to them living in bunkers nearby and camps and simply never stop spawning if engaged en-mass (zealots and bandits usually being innumerable according to most books/films/history) I recon this would limit the ammunition, maybe there could be the odd military base scattered around with blue prints for better ammo styles, armour piercing or exploding tips hehe, once again zealot living there or bandits to make better more effective use of ammo limitation.

I do hope this was a more cohesive and welcome response. Considering my last one took me 1 min and was posted half asleep.

I actually dont really see anything bad with anyone elses initial response to the OP, just individuals views. Although considering the time of some folk invested here, they may wish to make folk aware of similar threads made before. This is usually quite helpful making your point stand out if required or simply move your comment to anothers thread if they have covered it.

I do think you should edit out or apologise about the ear thing, kids are on this forum.

[iSuck345]

Fuck the lot of you in the ear.

Well that was rude.

[Marilous]

Fuck the lot of you in the ear.

Well that was rude.

Yeah that was kinda rude, he didn't seem very nice, I don't think i'll miss him.

[SirChuckles]

Honestly, the reason we reacted poorly was because you didn't bring anything particularly new to the table.

I was, at first, enthused to read what you had to type, but then lost that enthusiasm when I realized you're serious about the "Post-Apocalyptia" setting. There is not a set setting. Nowhere does it say, to my knowledge, that this is Earth, that there was any kind of apocalypse, or anything of that sort.

[toaster Assassin]

Normally, when there is a topic about a similar subject the members are to post there instead of creating a new topic. The members on this topic who mentioned that were just following a system that we use.

By posting in a similar topic you:

A. Help maintain a clean list on the forum

B. Help keep ideas organized and easy for Chris and other forum members to find (If there are multiple topics about the same subject, then it will be a pain for others to find YOUR/OTHERS ideas.)
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Swearing is permissible as long as it is:
A. Not excessive

B. Aimed at ANY forum member or the forum community itself.
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I read this entire topic and basically, I do not see reason that it cannot be posted here.
http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... =10&t=1551
(Your argument was defending the idea of firearms based on the harshness of the lifestyle based on the environment and the tech available)
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Normally, I would merge this thread with Firearms, but since it was stated that it was different (I will see where this topic goes(and merge if need be))
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Conclusion: People apologized, therefore the arguing stops now. Continuing the argument will be subject to moderator actions

[iSuck345]

Still... the topic title is pretty cool.

[Bruno]

Is the entire Kenshi fan community like this jackass?

Actually, I did read your first post.

Did you read the FAQ? The game isn't even post-apocalyptic.

It's a different time and place entirely.