Str stat degeneration as a solution to muscle bulk.

[Zeal]

Now, I know the idea of stat degeneration has been posted in the past, and it hasn't really gone far. But with the new muscle bulk system, I think it's time to revisit this possibility.

I've argued that the muscle bulk is justified, as it makes sense, and I will not change my opinion on that. If you want to raise the str of a girl up to the 80's, then even in life, if a girl can lift a car, they are not going to be trim and smooth just because they are female.. However, I'll be honest, in a gamey world, this has been a huge turn off for me. Spending more time worried that my spec ops female characters are going to gain muscle mass because they need to run somewhere and pick up an unconscious character and bring them home. Every second that str growth is higher than 10% is a little more and more trying as my characters approach unappealing.

Now, don't get me wrong. I understand that's complete bias of my aesthetic craze. But it's been so bad that everytime I load up my Kenshi save, and see those bulky dex girls, I just lose interest.

So, enough about my personal whiney whiney, and more about a plausible solution.
I like the idea that some other skills seem to "help" with reduction, but i'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that learning how to cook means all that weight training is less effective. Not able to do it.. But aside from that reasoning, it's just not enough.

That's where I propose that there be a system where str slowly deteriorates.
I don't believe that the muscle bulk should be removed, but it's a permanent change to characters that people just can't control, and more often than not, that mandatory str level (25-30) will be reached inevitably even if people do not want it to, unless they do nothing with that character.

I propose that so long as a character's str growth is exactly 0%, that it very very slowly declines. (and i do mean slowly.)
If it is even 1%, then it should have zero decline, even if characters are standing around. This would avoid the issue of having to micromanage to keep your str up, and would encourage those strong characters to continue to have reason in being as strong as they are. It would also let people not have to worry about their women starting to look like holy nation paladins..

I understand that the logic of "upkeep" can be held for all stats, but keeping your str on 1% is not really much "upkeep", and should not impact much in the lines of gameplay. I also understand though that Kenshi isn't really the game to be fighting for aesthetic appeal. So this is just a possible solution. If it doesn't fly, then that's unfortunate for myself, and possibly others, but I'll certainly live, and so will Kenshi.

[Abek]

Absolutely not. You're proposing a change to a functional stat for an aesthetic reason.

I run a berserker main character. Rag loincloth. Giant blade. Now a sick gas mask.

Unfortunately, he's been around for so long that his strength stat is 92. That means that regardless of how heavy a weapon I give him, his resting str growth is always 0%. It goes up in combat, but still. Having it decline for any reason offsets days (possibly weeks) of work and slaughter.

I do completely understand where you're coming from though. My own counter fix is to add a toggle in the character editor for, "turn off attributes affecting appearance" I would love that button. My avatar has ceased to really look like me. He's like this short asian meatball now. It's kinda a bummer.

[Zeal]

Absolutely not. You're proposing a change to a functional stat for an aesthetic reason.

I run a berserker main character. Rag loincloth. Giant blade. Now a sick gas mask.

Unfortunately, he's been around for so long that his strength stat is 92. That means that regardless of how heavy a weapon I give him, his resting str growth is always 0%. It goes up in combat, but still. Having it decline for any reason offsets days (possibly weeks) of work and slaughter.

I do completely understand where you're coming from though. My own counter fix is to add a toggle in the character editor for, "turn off attributes affecting appearance" I would love that button. My avatar has ceased to really look like me. He's like this short asian meatball now. It's kinda a bummer.

Yep, I realize that your first line is true. But I don't think I emphasized "Very very slow" enough..

The decay would be extremely slow. Not enough to impact your berserker at all, unless your character remained out of combat for weeks on end. (which I doubt is the case for him) When I say slow, i do mean slow. Stat progress has an exp bar that gets larger and larger the higher it gets, much like leveling in any other standard rpg. The decline would not be a fixed percentage of your stat, but more so a gradual fixed decline of the exp itself. Meaning weaker characters may see a stat decline faster than weaker ones, but it should not be enough to make it more difficult to raise and keep your str up. At an str of 30, I'd imagine it would be an equivelent exp loss of 1 point per week, maybe 2 weeks.

At 92 str, you've got so much exp packed in there, that it may take months of no activity for it to drop a single point. This would allow people who wish non-str builds to remain low on str, while allowing people with high str builds to remain high str. It may take slightly more time, as they are slowly losing some of that str exp gain while not being actively engaged though, which I understand could be a problem.. But again, maybe something could be worked out as to when that degeneration applies and when it does not.

More reasonably, i'd honestly like to see this kind of thing applied to all stats. But that's a push that people have made in the past that has been given no dice, unfortuately.

Your idea of a toggle would be nice, but I don't have any issue with the guys being muscly hulks, and my goal is not to remove it completely, but to be able to better control it. Because strength increase is inevitable and unavoidable (your berserker having 92 str with only a weapon and a loincloth is a perfect example of this). There needs to be a way to control this better.

[Sol Lignum]

I'm sure the issue with muscle bulk can be fixed with help of a plastic surgeon. Also i believe that since chest\arms\legs\shoulder bulk is now bind to character stats, these sliders should probably be removed from character creation tool. This will fix everything, i once again believe.

If muscles will grow over time as character develops, then there should be some starting point equal to every character.

[Zeal]

I'm sure the issue with muscle bulk can be fixed with help of a plastic surgeon. Also i believe that since chest\arms\legs\shoulder bulk is now bind to character stats, these sliders should probably be removed from character creation tool. This will fix everything, i once again believe.

If muscles will grow over time as character develops, then there should be some starting point equal to every character.

Hey, if this can actually be effectively corrected through the plastic surgeon, then i'd actually be fine with leaving it at that. This is something i've just not been able to experiment with, considering in all the 200 hours i've played of the beta map, i've only had the privelege of ever running into one single plastic surgeon... Would be nice to see if this actually works.

Though if that slider is removed, then, whelp. It's back to having no solution.

[Shidan]

You might try and mess around with those sliders when you get a chance. I just did a quick test with a test character that has 100 in all skills that give muscle bulk and definition, you can get them down to practically skin and bones. So with a bit of time and effort, you might be able to get them looking as you like.

(Shameless Plug)
As for not finding any Plastic Surgeons, that would likely be due to the fact that they can only be found in Holy Nation cities. No idea if it's intentional, or an oversight. But I do have a mod to alleviate it by adding them to the other factions, if you're interested.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =715349763

[Sol Lignum]

(...)Though if that slider is removed, then, whelp. It's back to having no solution.

I see where i missed with sliders. One probably should never be deprived from cuztomization of their char for any sake

Hope you'll find a way to that greasy drunk fellow, who happens to be an appearence magician in Kenshi, cuz those sliders do work properly!

[dada]

What about hunger related statsloss? I think it would fit authenticly and would add some more tension to it not to get too hungry. the more you starve and the more muscle (/ fat) mass you got the faster you lose - while maybe keep nutrition for a certain loss-amount on a certain hunger-stain, due to consuming the bodys resources. Could be balanced by the opposite -> high nutrition = more gain

I can imagine something like this might have already been discussed.

[Berzerker Jay]

Count me for a nay. I also would find it really annoying to have the stats decay. With the way the system is designed that would cap a lot of the stats and make the game a really bad grind.

Besides, it is already a small annoyance that science and cooking undermine muscle development. That's just a weird and silly thing in the game that makes it a little less easy to take it serious. Now have strength deteriorate on top of that? I'd be willing to bet more people are turned off playing the game by that then as you are by female characters gaining muscle.

I really hope the game doesn't continue in this direction. I feel like I'm just ignoring it while I'm playing, and I feel that takes away from the experience more than anything. Please don't make it worse.

[dada]

I´d be willing to hold the bet. Unfortunatly we can´t determine a winner..

What direction are you thinking of, in which the game shouldn´t continue?

I´m talking about a more dynamic gameplay. Like it is now, it´s kind of a grind to get a char in the upper skills (on normal). But due to the already build in - and appreciated - options to play the game (skill-, techprogress-speed, etc.), to adjust the gameplay to your playstyle..

Why shouldn´t there be a statloss-mechanic?!

At least for the modders.

Regarding the muscle-girls - there might could be a more athletic version made for them, instead of the same bulky male muscle mesh. And /or, depended to the 'frame'-value.

[Zeal]

Count me for a nay. I also would find it really annoying to have the stats decay. With the way the system is designed that would cap a lot of the stats and make the game a really bad grind.

I disagree that it would make it a grind. On the contrary, I feel like it would be more rewarding, and be an effect of actual gameplay, rather than grinding.

As things are, everyone you hire will eventually grow into a master swordsman behemoth, even your bread cook. The only thing that's required for that to happen is keeping them alive long enough. It's an inevitability.. People will pack up a newly hired units and fill them up with iron bars, and lug an unconscious bandit around their base for a solid month until they are satisfied with their str, and then drop that bandit, and never worry about raising that str again, because it'll now just be there. That is what a grind is. It's doing the same useless thing over and over again, to reach a certain goal you have so you never need to do that same useless thing again.

If people realized that that str is going to drop if they don't continue to use it, they may lose interest in doing the above and just start playing the game. The str will come to that point on it's own, and it will stay that way, so long as they play in a fashion that justifies having those stats. That is not a grind. It's playing the game.

In the end, it will only be a grind if you choose to make it that way, and this would certainly deterr people from wasting their time "grinding" it.

[Set]

I don't like the idea. It will add more micromanagement, and the anoying one......I have enough with the hunger thing, btw, in the last update it's decaying really fast (with slider in 0.25)

[Hatsune_Neko]

btw, in the last update it's decaying really fast (with slider in 0.25)

post in the bug forum please.

[Sol Lignum]

If people realized that that str is going to drop if they don't continue to use it, they ...

...wll just grind more and call it a mindless grindfest of a game. Because if people tend to grind, nothing will stop them, really.

Me, for one, i rarely grind. I'm having enough chores irl to not wank myself dry ingame. I may only grind along IF i enjoy the process (like in Warframe).

What i mean is - Kenshi has no stat decay now, and there're non-grindy people (i'm not the only one, right?)

[Abek]

Eh, it's not so much of a grind. I used to leave Kenshi on and go to work. Leave my guy in the middle of the desert and just see what happened to him.

Come back and find out I'm now at war with the traders, slavers, and apparently every beak thing in the desert.

Lol no. I'm not about to watch my character grind his way through 72 irl hours of farming.

[Zeal]

If people realized that that str is going to drop if they don't continue to use it, they ...

...wll just grind more and call it a mindless grindfest of a game. Because if people tend to grind, nothing will stop them, really.

Me, for one, i rarely grind. I'm having enough chores irl to not wank myself dry ingame. I may only grind along IF i enjoy the process (like in Warframe).

What i mean is - Kenshi has no stat decay now, and there're non-grindy people (i'm not the only one, right?)

Nope. you're not. There are definitely at least a couple other people out there that play Kenshi for the game, rather than the stats

But you're right. Grindy people will always grind, regardless of what you do..

When it comes down to it, it's really just how people see the game. It sounds like the bulk of people prefer the stats over the actual gameplay. And that's fine. that's their preference. It's just not mine.

[Sol Lignum]

Anyway, i wish you to find your way to plastic surgeon, who'll hopefully be able to erase your concerns considering anime-ish girls muscle bulk

Btw, my newbie squad is at the World's End now, so i'll check if there's surgeon around...

UPD: Was unable to pinpoint any. That's odd. Thought they should be in every large city. Maybe Empire will help when time comes

[Shidan]

Btw, my newbie squad is at the World's End now, so i'll check if there's surgeon around...

UPD: Was unable to pinpoint any. That's odd. Thought they should be in every large city. Maybe Empire will help when time comes

You wouldn't find any in World's End. They are currently only set to spawn in The Holy Nation, The Empire, and Deadcat cities. The Empire doesn't currently have any accessible cities, and the only Deadcat ones do not have any applicable buildings to house the squad. That leaves the Holy Nation, who spawn the Surgeon fine. But that restricts it to humans, or non-humans with human escorts.

You'll currently not find them anywhere else without mods.

[Zeal]

Btw, my newbie squad is at the World's End now, so i'll check if there's surgeon around...

UPD: Was unable to pinpoint any. That's odd. Thought they should be in every large city. Maybe Empire will help when time comes

You wouldn't find any in World's End. They are currently only set to spawn in The Holy Nation, The Empire, and Deadcat cities. The Empire doesn't currently have any accessible cities, and the only Deadcat ones do not have any applicable buildings to house the squad. That leaves the Holy Nation, who spawn the Surgeon fine. But that restricts it to humans, or non-humans with human escorts.

You'll currently not find them anywhere else without mods.

Yeah.. Going to have to wait till my next siege on holy nation.

--moved to feature requests, since this seems more about adding a feature than adjusting a currently existing one.