Thievery nerfs (balance)

[Ocram]

Why is an npc catching me stealing from a container he is not seeing (and has never seen as far as I know)? Just a thought. I know why, but might be improved, maybe letting all the squad members (or just guard type) to be aware of containers, like for laying items.

That aside, the chance percentages about stealing are a little off, see what I mean:


Here's another case, the barrel just 1m behind the leader, 24 thievery:


I'm not even a quarter way thru becoming a quick hands thief and I'm already able to steal almost anything useful. A cap could add some spice too, 99 even, just that bit that doesn't make you rich with 0 effort.

[dragonalumni]

I think 24 in thief is pretty good (ie = real thief) , not a novice at all.

[Ocram]

Still off to me, at 0 skill you can steal Thieves loot (since the boss is always guarding outside) with 100% all the time (might be a little more than 0, I always could as far as i remember), I made him roaming inside too but that doesn't really solve. Could be a problem with leader distance falling off too hard, but at that skill you shouldn't be able to steal that much good loot, takin also in account there's no difference in chances on low and high quality items.

[Grimmrok]

takin also in account there's no difference in chances on low and high quality items.

Why would there be a difference?

[Kwikwilyaqa]

I think he can see you, but the stealth eye sometimes do not update properly. There are several bugs related to the stealth mechanics. I always do some walking around first to see if the head of the npc change direction - even the eye is blue he is seeing you sometimes.

And about nerfs, try to compare thievery to any sword skill. 20 is a pretty good stat. 30 is almost over the top (Seto with 30 in all is OP as hell). I have a character with 86str and 51 in heavy weapons that can rape 300 dust bandits with a crappy weapon, practically turning to paste 5-8 in each swing (hitting almost 300!!! with my Falling Sun Edge 3). The problem is how fast you improve the skill - this I can agree that need some nerf and testing, because you can master in 4 days of training.

[Ocram]

Why would there be a difference?

Balance, you can get cheap items easily and valuable items less easily, some games do this even if in reality makes little sense.

I think he can see you, but the stealth eye sometimes do not update properly. There are several bugs related to the stealth mechanics. I always do some walking around first to see if the head of the npc change direction - even the eye is blue he is seeing you sometimes.

And about nerfs, try to compare thievery to any sword skill. 20 is a pretty good stat. 30 is almost over the top (Seto with 30 in all is OP as hell). I have a character with 86str and 51 in heavy weapons that can rape 300 dust bandits with a crappy weapon, practically turning to paste 5-8 in each swing (hitting almost 300!!! with my Falling Sun Edge 3). The problem is how fast you improve the skill - this I can agree that need some nerf and testing, because you can master in 4 days of training.

I think the eye works just fine, being seen and being targeted are separate things, AI might "see" targets in combat while actually not seeying what they are attacking, they just have the directive to attack a target, seen or not. Don't ask me why they are separate :p

Thievery is different from combat, that while probably being more exciting and fun, has some negative implications, you get hurt, may die, commit crime, ruin relations, whatever. Once you skill thievery there's no downside (see the numbers) in stealing, while getting the most profitable loot.

[Kwikwilyaqa]

I think the eye works just fine, being seen and being targeted are separate things, AI might "see" targets in combat while actually not seeying what they are attacking, they just have the directive to attack a target, seen or not. Don't ask me why they are separate :p

Thievery is different from combat, that while probably being more exciting and fun, has some negative implications, you get hurt, may die, commit crime, ruin relations, whatever. Once you skill thievery there's no downside (see the numbers) in stealing, while getting the most profitable loot.

Didn't know about this... and this kinda explain that one bug when the NPC gets some X-ray vision and start targeting you with precision, rendering stealth useless since he knows where you are all the time. It's the "targeting" that bugs locking in you character, not the stealth then?

And yes, is different from combat, but I was not trying to compare the two. Just skill progression. And when you say "you get hurt, may die, commit crime, ruin relations, whatever" I'm really confused because both can do this to you xP

[Ocram]

Here could be funny someone saying: "You are not at 24 thievery and 60 stealth like I am, I'm a pro, I don't get caught, noob"
Seriously tho, you just don't get caught at some point, that 102% means almost a 100% success, if I even know math.

[EDIT] Yeah I just noticed I skipped a part, I don't know about skill progression, might be all the skills are "good" at 20, but the point is that stealing is too easy at 20, wether for the leader distance being too generous or containers with good loot put too far away or whatever other reason. While training it might be easy or hard, you get there at some point. You don't get that much profit with any other skill, all stats at 20, you just can't fight enough to even get close to a loot of a couple of days, stealing from the same chest. Hope you get what I mean, I can't clarify better, my vocabulary is small.

[Kwikwilyaqa]

This part I totally agree. Small changes like the safe in bars - actually an exploit fixed - could make thievery more intense. Some layout changes are needed to make more challenging to "get" the reward, and not just some sort of easy money (like the new noble house in the outpost IV, totally exploitable without doors or real security outside in the 2nd floor). But for each safe moved, more security or changes, the fact is you can clean a place without thievery, just knocking out the guards/leader (but this is for another topic, right?) xP

[Ocram]

Yep, just the leader being able to catch you stealing from containers is not enough anyway, unless you just place every single good loot chest at a maximum distance from him. Even in this case there's ko, as you said, and you can "exploit" (make them move away from loot, might even be something devs intentionally did, I wont spoil) leaders in other ways.

That's already in another topic about stealth improvements, guards paths are too random, a couple more guards with node-to-node patrol and look-at-node (look over leader in this case), maybe them be able to "hear" you stealing, could render thievery a little more predictable and less free, even a challenge.

[Kwikwilyaqa]

From the patch notes:

"You can no longer attempt to pick locks that are beyond your skill level (if it's less than 5% success chance)"

That's a f#$@!$ huge nerf!. There is no way to steal until you are proper training. I liked the solution - elegant and makes the thief's life no more so exploitable. Man, nobody will steal nothing worth a penny now - all the good loot is restricted to end game lol

[Ocram]

That's lockpicking tho, while you can relate the skills, has nothing to do with thievery.

[Kwikwilyaqa]

Yes, but now you can't steal the good things anymore. As I see, all the good stuff is locked in high level chests and safes, so the nerf applies and with such intensity that makes any good loot unavailable until mid-end game.

[Hatsune_Neko]

You can steal them. Now you just need to have good skill for it.
And not really a nerf. More like closing a exploit.

You have to train everything else. Now thievery is included.

[Rambler]

That lockpicking change also makes it harder to loot ruins at the start of the game. That could be good for balance as well.

[Ocram]

That is a nice change indeed, I still think percentages are too generous.

[EDIT] Tweaked in .22, loot is less free.
[EDIT2] Nvm, something happened and lowered stealing succes for a while, can't find out what tho.