This game is pretty immersive, as an RPG should be, so when immersion is broken, that's a problem. That being said, something I've noticed in this game is that my characters have absolutely no reason to sleep unless they want to heal faster.
This means things like renting beds at the inn for the night, making camp for the night, or finding an alleyway to sleep in for the night — the latter of which isn't even possible — aren't going to happen unless I do it just for role-playing purposes. Unfortunately, role-playing isn't enough for most people to sleep even when they don't need to and that's at the detriment to immersion.
Sure, sleeping would involve the player doing pretty much nothing, but much of the game is already like that. Mining and travel are good examples. They aren't quite as hands-off as having your characters sleep until morning, but if players are okay with some of the uneventful activities in this niche game, they'll be okay with waiting for characters to rest up for the next day. Honestly, it doesn't take that much time to fast-forward through night anyway.
From a mechanical standpoint, it would open up new avenues for playstyle if NPC characters had to sleep too. For example, I've never witnessed a barkeep go to sleep. They seem to spend their entire lives just standing there. If there were a time where most NPCs — if a city had a night watch, they would sleep during the day — were asleep, it would make for more expansive thief gameplay. To make that more interesting, they could then do things like have the night watch guard question civilians that are out at night and especially those that are clearly sneaking around.
From a balance standpoint, it would make it harder to make a living if your characters couldn't feasibly work through the night and had to rent beds every night. It's just too easy to mine, sell, buy food, rinse and repeat; early game just doesn't feel like a struggle for survival and it should.
Make Sleep a Necessity
So, imagine you have a colony of 100 people (currently this is possible only with mods, but the vanilla is to increase its current limit once it's more optimized, but we don't know by how much, either way, let us set 100 for an example).
Sure, if you have them all just working the base, as long as you have enough beds, they can go and do the sleeping and waking up automatically.
But imagine if you're planning an attack and you take, say even just 30 of them.
First the game will have to have the option to set bedtimes for individual characters, or at least individual squads, and the whole faction, so your travelling group doesn't necessarily suddenly try to go to sleep when right when your workers at your base go to sleep.
They will have to be carrying enough camp beds, each night laying them on the ground and each morning picking them up.
Then maybe you need a night watch to protect your sleeping pawns, but then the night watch will be tired when you're out on the move again during day time. When do they get to sleep?
Or then you don't have night watch, and that means that you're vulnerable to attacks.
Then there's also the chance of them having different levels of tiredness, which means if someone didn't get to sleep well the past night, you risk them collapsing while you're travelling fast forward. The bigger the group, the more the chance of this happening. And if you're not paying too much attention to your squad while they're getting from point A to point B, you might not notice the guy that collapsed and was left behind, and next thing you know is they are getting eaten by some spiders or other wild animals (or humans), or being captured by slavers. Why? Just because you weren't paying all that much attention on the squad that was just... Running.
Of course, this could be avoided if you checked beforehand if all your footmen are well rested. All 30 of them. Or 40. Or 70. Or how many you decide to take for a run.
Maybe you find that additional micromanagement fun, but I personally wouldn't. There's the "enough to keep you busy", and then there's the "too much".
Someone will not be sated with just the addition of sleep, but they will want to be able to drink water, shave their beard, reheat cooked food, poop in the outhouse, etc.
Also, regarding the "fast forward while they are sleeping" that you suggested; it's not enough that we have to wait for them to run for however long it takes to get from A to B, we now also have to sit and wait for them to sleep, literally doing nothing. Just waiting more. Which also, depends on your location and destination, could add tremendously on the time it takes for you to get to where you're headed.
_________________________
Frankly speaking, it is quite an unnecessary and tedius addition.
And I don't think it's wise to use company resources and time in implementing it to the game, while there are so many more needed and requested features.
Sure, if you have them all just working the base, as long as you have enough beds, they can go and do the sleeping and waking up automatically.
But imagine if you're planning an attack and you take, say even just 30 of them.
First the game will have to have the option to set bedtimes for individual characters, or at least individual squads, and the whole faction, so your travelling group doesn't necessarily suddenly try to go to sleep when right when your workers at your base go to sleep.
They will have to be carrying enough camp beds, each night laying them on the ground and each morning picking them up.
Then maybe you need a night watch to protect your sleeping pawns, but then the night watch will be tired when you're out on the move again during day time. When do they get to sleep?
Or then you don't have night watch, and that means that you're vulnerable to attacks.
Then there's also the chance of them having different levels of tiredness, which means if someone didn't get to sleep well the past night, you risk them collapsing while you're travelling fast forward. The bigger the group, the more the chance of this happening. And if you're not paying too much attention to your squad while they're getting from point A to point B, you might not notice the guy that collapsed and was left behind, and next thing you know is they are getting eaten by some spiders or other wild animals (or humans), or being captured by slavers. Why? Just because you weren't paying all that much attention on the squad that was just... Running.
Of course, this could be avoided if you checked beforehand if all your footmen are well rested. All 30 of them. Or 40. Or 70. Or how many you decide to take for a run.
Maybe you find that additional micromanagement fun, but I personally wouldn't. There's the "enough to keep you busy", and then there's the "too much".
Someone will not be sated with just the addition of sleep, but they will want to be able to drink water, shave their beard, reheat cooked food, poop in the outhouse, etc.
Also, regarding the "fast forward while they are sleeping" that you suggested; it's not enough that we have to wait for them to run for however long it takes to get from A to B, we now also have to sit and wait for them to sleep, literally doing nothing. Just waiting more. Which also, depends on your location and destination, could add tremendously on the time it takes for you to get to where you're headed.
_________________________
Frankly speaking, it is quite an unnecessary and tedius addition.
And I don't think it's wise to use company resources and time in implementing it to the game, while there are so many more needed and requested features.
Night watch is a thing in real life too. People wouldn't just collapse after having been on night watch the night before, they'd just be very tired; people pulling all-nighters in real life isn't a thing of legend.
They would just have to implement systems to make sleep management less of a chore. As for checking the sleep levels of dozens of characters, they could just make it so that the player gets some kind of notification when somebody is either sleep deprived and/or about to collapse from exhaustion. The game already has a high level of automation and RimWorld is just one game that can be cited as a game that has a sleep mechanic that improves the game.
As for the implementation of the other examples, well, that's for another thread and we'll just have to take those suggestions as they come.
As for doing literally nothing at night, well, there are many useful things the player can do under the cover of night, one example being freeing slaves from a nearby mine, which I specifically heard of in a Youtube video I watched back when I was still figuring out how to play this game.
Bottom line, this game is better off with sleep being a necessity. There's so much depth it would add and its absence is to the detriment of the game's immersion, which is really important in a game like this.
They would just have to implement systems to make sleep management less of a chore. As for checking the sleep levels of dozens of characters, they could just make it so that the player gets some kind of notification when somebody is either sleep deprived and/or about to collapse from exhaustion. The game already has a high level of automation and RimWorld is just one game that can be cited as a game that has a sleep mechanic that improves the game.
As for the implementation of the other examples, well, that's for another thread and we'll just have to take those suggestions as they come.
As for doing literally nothing at night, well, there are many useful things the player can do under the cover of night, one example being freeing slaves from a nearby mine, which I specifically heard of in a Youtube video I watched back when I was still figuring out how to play this game.
Bottom line, this game is better off with sleep being a necessity. There's so much depth it would add and its absence is to the detriment of the game's immersion, which is really important in a game like this.
Please don't compare Rimworld to Kenshi in that way, one is a Sim/Management game and the other a RPG. We can't really expect the same level of character needs management between these kinds of games. Systems that work for one can be terribly inconvenient for the other.
The sleep issue has been discussed to death. Check all the old post on it for the details. It was originally planned but finally left out to prevent over micro management. Food and hunger were picked as the necessity of choice. While I would personally like to see both sleep and thirst in the game it is not on the horizon.
-
philthymcnasty
- Posts: 736
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:57 pm
this is why sleep should be added. We now have tent options, and we now have camp options. So why not make sleep a necessity? Raiding an area or town should not be easy, it should be very, very hard. It would be great if your camps are found out by enemy patrols and they start locking the town gates when they realize you are coming. This would make besieging cities much harder and more fun.Grimmrok wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:14 pm
But imagine if you're planning an attack and you take, say even just 30 of them.
First the game will have to have the option to set bedtimes for individual characters, or at least individual squads, and the whole faction, so your travelling group doesn't necessarily suddenly try to go to sleep when right when your workers at your base go to sleep.
They will have to be carrying enough camp beds, each night laying them on the ground and each morning picking them up.
Then maybe you need a night watch to protect your sleeping pawns, but then the night watch will be tired when you're out on the move again during day time. When do they get to sleep?
Or then you don't have night watch, and that means that you're vulnerable to attacks.
One of my favorite things about this game, is setting up a camp outside a ruin for the injured. This makes the expeditions more fun and adds a sense of realism to the game. Making sleep necessary would make the game more difficult, and considering how this is a never ending grind fest, this would be a good thing.
Even the bandits seem to sleep, as dust camps are all over the place. So it should not be too hard to make this a necessary mechanic. The NPCS already go inside at night.
Isn't sleep already a necessity? Especially if we're talkin about raiding. Ok the game right now is easy and I don't like it too this way, but mods help here, with the right difficulty you NEED to sleep to heal. Sleeping cause you're "tired" is just reducing playtime to me.
-
Sol Lignum
- Posts: 1085
- Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:56 pm
- Location: Mother Russia!
- Contact:
If it to be added, i'd vote for a very light and forgiving form of it, i.e. no death when sleep-o-meter reaches a hypothetical zero, but some considerable penalties to every stat, say, -30%, and maybe some form of stumbled response to a command, i.e. a certain delay, or walking instead of jogging, etc. Plus, there should be no wakeup timer, and every character should spend as much time sleeping as decided by player, even if slep-o-meter is full, characters should not wake up unless command is giving or direct threat is presented.
As an example: you are to raid a certain place, you break camp, planning the attack, and the final step of preparation is to get some good sleep, but there's one problem, half of your squad are at medium sleep deprivation, couple of guys are almost completely rested, and then some are fully exhausted. So to not micromanage everyone to equal level of tiredness, you just put everyone in bed and wait till the most exhaused guys are rested.
Honestly though, it's a terrible idea, that would only, just as Ocram said, take away some fun time you could've had fighting enemies in exchange for a beauty sleep. Kenshi is already filthy rich on awesome features and details which has never been combined before, and i really see no point in stretching it's survival aspect beyond hunger.
As an example: you are to raid a certain place, you break camp, planning the attack, and the final step of preparation is to get some good sleep, but there's one problem, half of your squad are at medium sleep deprivation, couple of guys are almost completely rested, and then some are fully exhausted. So to not micromanage everyone to equal level of tiredness, you just put everyone in bed and wait till the most exhaused guys are rested.
Honestly though, it's a terrible idea, that would only, just as Ocram said, take away some fun time you could've had fighting enemies in exchange for a beauty sleep. Kenshi is already filthy rich on awesome features and details which has never been combined before, and i really see no point in stretching it's survival aspect beyond hunger.
-
Sol Lignum
- Posts: 1085
- Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:56 pm
- Location: Mother Russia!
- Contact:
Can only speak for myself here, and i'm just not finding it hardcore anyhow
Dismemberment and cannibalism are hardcore. Beauty sleep, in this particular scale of gameplay, is tediousness. Kinda reminds me of those cheap games where you can only play a certain period of time, after which you have to buy some gems or wait 24 hours for another round.
Also, i think we're beating a dead garru here, since as swillo have said, it's been planed and eventually got discarded for very reasons everyone against it has brought to the table in this topic.
^ this pretty much.
We're not opposing, we're giving out thoughts to think about, that's what the forum is for. If implemented the right way it could be cool honestly, but npcs already sleep (ok, the barman is a vampire, like many others, could use a fine tune) and I don't see a way it could not be an impairement for player's characters, it should have been designed to fit in from the start I think.
We're not opposing, we're giving out thoughts to think about, that's what the forum is for. If implemented the right way it could be cool honestly, but npcs already sleep (ok, the barman is a vampire, like many others, could use a fine tune) and I don't see a way it could not be an impairement for player's characters, it should have been designed to fit in from the start I think.
Yeah, the fact that NPCs sleep and the player character doesn't need to is another immersion-breaker. Because the world reacts to nighttime it would support more playstyles. Example, making a thief character that sleeps during the day and spends his waking life stealing.
Not at all. I would love to see it if it could be done without making the game bog down, I would add water, illness, infections and a ton of other stuff as well.
But this has been discussed to death over the last four years. The Devs already ruled on it. So just letting you know what was already decided long ago. Feel free to keep discussing, but know that so far nothing new has been said.
-
kevinflemming
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:58 am
- Location: Plymouth, England
As already mentioned, it won't be added. It was either food or fatigue, IIRC.
Who knows what could be potentially added by mods in the future, though. If there is a way to copy/paste the hunger mechanic, create some water items (fairly easy to do, anyway) that could reference the additional mechanic, then you could potentially have Thirst and/or Dehydration. There are already wells, and farming that "uses" water, so it might not be so impossible to incorporate.
Hell, give it some time and I might look into it myself. I've been scratching the Kenshi modding itch lately, with some tinkering and learning about new things. Don't get your hopes up, though lol.
Who knows what could be potentially added by mods in the future, though. If there is a way to copy/paste the hunger mechanic, create some water items (fairly easy to do, anyway) that could reference the additional mechanic, then you could potentially have Thirst and/or Dehydration. There are already wells, and farming that "uses" water, so it might not be so impossible to incorporate.
Hell, give it some time and I might look into it myself. I've been scratching the Kenshi modding itch lately, with some tinkering and learning about new things. Don't get your hopes up, though lol.
I also think it's weird for sleep to be completely optional. There are beds in the game, there is sleeping in the game, you see NPCs sleeping in inns all the time, but PCs don't have to sleep. 
I would be happy to see a minor tiredness debuff that can be cured by sleeping for an hour or two (or a minor 'well rested' buff for sleeping, if a tired debuff is seen as too punishing), and I would be happy to see player character AI include going to lie down sometimes the same way they go grab food for themselves. No one would have to micromanage their guys, but those who made the effort to keep them rested would receive a small mechanical benefit. There would be a reason to build siege camps for example instead of just blundering your guys straight in after a long march.
Related: I do think it's strange that there is a hunger stat but no thirst. Climbing mountains with no water but plenty of bread, no problem. Again it's odd because water as a resource is already prominently featured in the game. I know it's "just another meter" but it strikes me as important. Again would be happy to see something implemented.
New player here, don't be too cruel, I know water and rest have been brought up before, just sharing my desire to see developer implementation or perhaps mods.
I would be happy to see a minor tiredness debuff that can be cured by sleeping for an hour or two (or a minor 'well rested' buff for sleeping, if a tired debuff is seen as too punishing), and I would be happy to see player character AI include going to lie down sometimes the same way they go grab food for themselves. No one would have to micromanage their guys, but those who made the effort to keep them rested would receive a small mechanical benefit. There would be a reason to build siege camps for example instead of just blundering your guys straight in after a long march.
Related: I do think it's strange that there is a hunger stat but no thirst. Climbing mountains with no water but plenty of bread, no problem. Again it's odd because water as a resource is already prominently featured in the game. I know it's "just another meter" but it strikes me as important. Again would be happy to see something implemented.
New player here, don't be too cruel, I know water and rest have been brought up before, just sharing my desire to see developer implementation or perhaps mods.
-
Hatsune_Neko
- Moderator
- Posts: 4086
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:59 am
- Location: Columbus, OH
thirst was gonna be added, but the Dev dropped it because he thought it was to much micromanaging and used hunger instead. same reasoning for sleep as well., but he added sleep when you need to heal part. which is his compromise.
Do you believe the sexes should be equal?
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
Hunger's not micromanaging at all. Just gotta make sure at least someone in the party has food and everyone can eat. The same would go for water. As for sleep, systems can be implemented to make sure it doesn't become a chore. Warband of 50 people? Toggle "Sleep Mode" on and they'll make camp and take turns sleeping and watching for bandit/animal attacks. That's literally something I came up with just now off the top of my head, so there are ways to pull this off.
Seriously, immersive elements wouldn't be to the detriment of a game like this. This isn't a fast-paced game and it isn't supposed to be, so features like this should be welcomed.
Seriously, immersive elements wouldn't be to the detriment of a game like this. This isn't a fast-paced game and it isn't supposed to be, so features like this should be welcomed.
-
Sol Lignum
- Posts: 1085
- Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:56 pm
- Location: Mother Russia!
- Contact:
This only sounds simple, i bet it would require alot of coding and AI tweaking. But possible technical difficulties aside, nobody's saying hunger is bad. Once you're past certain point, it's just not an issue anymore, characters will just take a bite from whatever it is in their inventories. Plain and simple, and more importantly, does not take any time away from gameplay.
Simple experiment: just get half of your squad beaten to half-death and put them in bed, or better, a bedroll, to heal. Say, from 0 to 100, grab a stopwatch and see how much time it'll take, and also notice how the gameplay has changed. Now wait for half an ingame day and repeat. Do so for few hours and get back to us, sharing your experience Seriously.
Also, who's holding you from pretending it's a thing? Make it a bed time at 22:00 ingame, stop your guys from whatever they've been doing and put everyone to sleep till 7:00.
Simple experiment: just get half of your squad beaten to half-death and put them in bed, or better, a bedroll, to heal. Say, from 0 to 100, grab a stopwatch and see how much time it'll take, and also notice how the gameplay has changed. Now wait for half an ingame day and repeat. Do so for few hours and get back to us, sharing your experience
Seriously.Also, who's holding you from pretending it's a thing? Make it a bed time at 22:00 ingame, stop your guys from whatever they've been doing and put everyone to sleep till 7:00.
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests