Females!

[Koren]

Sure everybody, fine! Just keeping going with this correction war. Everyone just ignore poor lonely Old Man Liver's question. He's too old to have feelings, right?

We are just too young to properly respect our elders?

But if I had an answer, I would have given it. We can only hope it is soon, but I kinda doubt it since there is still much to be implemented in the building and research functionality.

[iSuck345]

Sure everybody, fine! Just keeping going with this correction war. Everyone just ignore poor lonely Old Man Liver's question. He's too old to have feelings, right?

Sorry for ignoring you, HUGE "rage"(I think) war over here, what was your question?

[Blxz]

Sure everybody, fine! Just keeping going with this correction war. Everyone just ignore poor lonely Old Man Liver's question. He's too old to have feelings, right?

Sorry for ignoring you, HUGE "rage"(I think) war over here, what was your question?

He wanted to know when he could get sex change operations in the game.

I suspect something similar to be implemented in the next few versions. Not a 'change' per se, but more of the option to have female members. Just give them huge hands and feet and some stubble and they can be all sorts of sex change for you.

[Kamos]

Well I think I remember seeing that Chris was going to put in a plastic surgeon type character once the new art assets and character models were in. That way you can diversify your team. Might apply to sex changes.

[Koren]

He wanted to know when he could get sex change operations in the game.

Are we going to have to start calling him Old Woman Liver?

[iSuck345]

He wanted to know when he could get sex change operations in the game.

Are we going to have to start calling him Old Woman Liver?

I know that I am. .

[Tolwrath]

So umm... yeah.. some interesting views on how women will fit into the Kenshi universe. Look I'm sorry for derailing the thread, I didn't think it would go that far off the tracks. I seriously had no intention of turning this into a catgirls vs bronies vs homosexuals vs modern age argument. The truth is, women could fit into Kenshi in some strange ways that we haven't even thought of yet. I believe it was Chris himself who said that Kenshi might as well take place on another planet. The Amazonian planet setup might actually happen. Or maybe we'd have something more like Battletanks 64 (a virus killed most women, creating the apocalypse, and now there's only a couple dozen left. Wars are fought to determine who will get to the women).

Note: I am in no way trying to claim that women are objects.

[Blxz]

In the interview that he did recently Chris mentioned that women may act/play differently than males in some ways. I wonder how this will be implemented? There is the generic 'less strength but more agility' tack that most games take (when they even make a difference) but I wonder what scope there is for other variations on this?

I envision a situation where certain characters may randomly grow certain skills more quickly than others (ie. fallout 'tagged' skills). This is set from when you first acquire the character and the player has no input. Male characters may have a higher chance of getting certain skills 'tagged' while females may have a higher chance of getting others. The various races may also have variations between them. Of course nothing is totally exclusive so it is still possible to get women getting labouring skills tagged but just with a lower probability. Also some races may be far more likely to have a skill growth bonus with unarmed but it is still possible to find one that has the potential to be a very skilled katana user, for example.

Of course there are other ways that differences can play out but this is just one possible way that I felt the game might be interesting. It may help to flesh out some personality between certain characters and finding someone who is naturally able to swing a plank around might be a defining moment in the game. (not that you couldn't stick any old guy with one and just train him up the hard way)

[jtgibson]

The reason we tend to avoid stuff like this, from a game development perspective, is because most of our preconceptions of what make women different than men are often sorely mistaken on both ends of the gender divide -- women, for instance, by and large believe the "men think of sex every five seconds" myth, and men, for instance, by and large believe the "women are more emotional than men" myth. This breeds sexism and can result in scary levels of sexual discrimination, including reverse discrimination.

Physical differences are obvious: women have mammaries, have more lower body strength and less upper body strength, and are more slender and flexible, giving rise to the Strength + Agility metric in most games. But mental differences are less obvious. Women are more disturbed by emotional infidelity than sexual infidelity on the part of a mate (men are more disturbed by sexual infidelity), but this can result from loading the questions and targets emotional gender rather than physical sex. Men have higher incidences of genius, but this can result from cultural predispositions on how women are supposed to denote their intelligence, or whether they should denote their intelligence at all. And so on.

The risk of trying to simulate things accurately is very, very dangerous in terms of producing a bigotist or discriminatory work, and that's generally why we choose to take the high road and just boil it down to Strength for males, Agility for females, and leave it at that.

[Mattk50]

In the interview that he did recently Chris mentioned that women may act/play differently than males in some ways. I wonder how this will be implemented? There is the generic 'less strength but more agility' tack that most games take (when they even make a difference) but I wonder what scope there is for other variations on this?

I envision a situation where certain characters may randomly grow certain skills more quickly than others (ie. fallout 'tagged' skills). This is set from when you first acquire the character and the player has no input. Male characters may have a higher chance of getting certain skills 'tagged' while females may have a higher chance of getting others. The various races may also have variations between them. Of course nothing is totally exclusive so it is still possible to get women getting labouring skills tagged but just with a lower probability. Also some races may be far more likely to have a skill growth bonus with unarmed but it is still possible to find one that has the potential to be a very skilled katana user, for example.

Of course there are other ways that differences can play out but this is just one possible way that I felt the game might be interesting. It may help to flesh out some personality between certain characters and finding someone who is naturally able to swing a plank around might be a defining moment in the game. (not that you couldn't stick any old guy with one and just train him up the hard way)

I'd imagine something similar to mount and blade. There were disadvantages such as being unable to marry, certain lords being sexist and refusing your rule, etc but you got advantages such as (because a woman leading an army was rarer) faster reputation gain.

[iSuck345]

In the interview that he did recently Chris mentioned that women may act/play differently than males in some ways. I wonder how this will be implemented? There is the generic 'less strength but more agility' tack that most games take (when they even make a difference) but I wonder what scope there is for other variations on this?

I envision a situation where certain characters may randomly grow certain skills more quickly than others (ie. fallout 'tagged' skills). This is set from when you first acquire the character and the player has no input. Male characters may have a higher chance of getting certain skills 'tagged' while females may have a higher chance of getting others. The various races may also have variations between them. Of course nothing is totally exclusive so it is still possible to get women getting labouring skills tagged but just with a lower probability. Also some races may be far more likely to have a skill growth bonus with unarmed but it is still possible to find one that has the potential to be a very skilled katana user, for example.

Of course there are other ways that differences can play out but this is just one possible way that I felt the game might be interesting. It may help to flesh out some personality between certain characters and finding someone who is naturally able to swing a plank around might be a defining moment in the game. (not that you couldn't stick any old guy with one and just train him up the hard way)

I'd imagine something similar to mount and blade. There were disadvantages such as being unable to marry, certain lords being sexist and refusing your rule, etc but you got advantages such as (because a woman leading an army was rarer) faster reputation gain.

I bet everyone simply already knows why women gain reputation so quickly. And no, I will not wink.

[Blxz]

I bet everyone simply already knows why women gain reputation so quickly. And no, I will not wink.

Hmm, either they work extra hard to break the 'glass ceiling' or they are naturally brilliant already since it requires someone of such skill to become a woman leading an army in a male dominated world. Of course that was what you meant.

[iSuck345]

I bet everyone simply already knows why women gain reputation so quickly. And no, I will not wink.

Hmm, either they work extra hard to break the 'glass ceiling' or they are naturally brilliant already since it requires someone of such skill to become a woman leading an army in a male dominated world. Of course that was what you meant.

Nope, not that.

[Tolwrath]

The risk of trying to simulate things accurately is very, very dangerous in terms of producing a bigotist or discriminatory work, and that's generally why we choose to take the high road and just boil it down to Strength for males, Agility for females, and leave it at that.

But that in itself is total bull. Bows, especially longbows, actually require a great amount of strength to use. Just using that standard formula negates the human element from characters. The great part about being human is that we can work ourselves against the average physical constraints and even become completely opposite to them.

Not that I'm trying to call out you in particular, I just think it's assinine for games and movies to restrict their characters based on over-simplified sexual limitations which can be overcome, or just wrong due to the human element.

But in a setting that "might as well be another planet" you could make such limitations more concrete by saying there's less genetic variation amongst this species. You could use it to explain any society views and structures. Meaning that this setting is one of the only settings where it's okay to formulaically set such gender restrictions.

I understand the desire for a writer/designer to censor themselves on matters like this to avoid unnecessary confrontation, but always remember that censorship itself can offend people.

[jtgibson]

True, but my metric has always been: "if you feel you need to defend it in any way, you've gone too far". Academic arguments belong to academic experts in those fields, not to game designers who think they know about the differences between men and women, white people and black people, North Americans and Europeans, etc.

In other words, it's not censorship so much as wittingly choosing not to overstep one's knowledge.

Strength and Agility (Dexterity in Kenshi terms) are both givens, but the high likelihood would be that they would be simple bonuses to starting levels -- any female could have high Strength and any male could have high Dexterity in Kenshi, since the system is deliberately open-ended on all stats.

Kenshi, so far, has demonstrated that all characters can do anything, but only certain characters can do certain things well. That is sort of my motto for game design, as well. Therefore, there is nothing stopping you from having a well-trained cadre of female archers solely because they didn't have a +5 bonus to their Strength scores to start the game. In all likelihood all of your female archers have a higher score on Strength than any of your lab workers, to boot.

[iSuck345]

True, but my metric has always been: "if you feel you need to defend it in any way, you've gone too far". Academic arguments belong to academic experts in those fields, not to game designers who think they know about the differences between men and women, white people and black people, North Americans and Europeans, etc.

In other words, it's not censorship so much as wittingly choosing not to overstep one's knowledge.

Strength and Agility (Dexterity in Kenshi terms) are both givens, but the high likelihood would be that they would be simple bonuses to starting levels -- any female could have high Strength and any male could have high Dexterity in Kenshi, since the system is deliberately open-ended on all stats.

Kenshi, so far, has demonstrated that all characters can do anything, but only certain characters can do certain things well. That is sort of my motto for game design, as well. Therefore, there is nothing stopping you from having a well-trained cadre of female archers solely because they didn't have a +5 bonus to their Strength scores to start the game. In all likelihood all of your female archers have a higher score on Strength than any of your lab workers, to boot.

If both males and femals can have the same stats, then they just have to worry about patriarchies/matriarchies. Also, what will it be like for OTHER species? And no I don't mean canibals, OR ORCS. In fact, I don't refer to elves either (most OP race I've ever faced, especially their heroes. Ugh...), I refer to ORIGINAL species, like insecs, or dinossaur-like species, save that they aren't giant titans of doom that will insta-kill you like Kratos (or a Mary Sue).

[Kamos]

I don't think big animals are so much an issue. Just cannibals mostly.

[iSuck345]

I don't think big animals are so much an issue. Just cannibals mostly.

How can canibals be more dangerous than a SENTIENT species that are a miniature of THIS:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... Ngeh7v3iRQ

[jtgibson]

You know, thinking on my post a bit more, I would say that females and males would actually be fairly evenly matched for the whole archery thing. Bows realistically require roughly equal parts strength -- to manage the draw weight -- and dexterity -- to steady and provide the aim.

Therefore, if the Bows skill requires equal parts Strength and Dexterity, then female archers would actually be the norm. This is based on simple "best use" scenarios. Males, with inherently high Strength and less inherently high Dexterity would be more suitable for humping gear, wielding hackers, heavy weapons, and choppers, and otherwise engaging in full-on melee. Females would still excel with finesse-based hand-to-hand and katana skills, but because the main bodies of infantry would be hack-and-chop line infantry, females would be better suited for elite/special forces. Also relevant is that if females and males are equally suited to archery, but males are more suited for infantry, then that leaves a gap -- theoretically males could fill both roles, leaving females untapped, but it would be far smarter to use both females and males, assigning males to the line infantry and females to the archery ranks, in order to make maximum use of the population available.

In fact, if we didn't have that whole bias against women historically, that would probably be how the real world would have built its armies.

[Kamos]

I don't think big animals are so much an issue. Just cannibals mostly.

How can canibals be more dangerous than a SENTIENT species that are a miniature of THIS:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... Ngeh7v3iRQ

Needs less water.