Some people you can control, some you can't

[Finson]

Quoting myself from another thread...

Though, here's another thing (and it may just be an alpha thing), faction and personal accounts. If everyone is sharing the same money and equipment and general belongings, isn't that a bit cult-like? At best, it's an extremely eclectic form of society you're implying when you essentially have a base of members with no personal belongings whatsoever. It would be cool if you could do that in Kenshi, but it seems like the current system assumes a lot about these random mercenaries' compliance to your will. That's not really dealing with this topic though. Sorry. I might make a thread for that, or someone else can if you're into it.

And here we are.

That probably about sums it up. It seems like there should be a difference between those individuals that are affiliated with you that you can influence, and those that you can directly control. I feel like faction members of questionable loyalty or slaves or mercenaries (for example) shouldn't be able to be controlled completely. And the whole no personal property thing seems like it wouldn't fly. I know it's sort of a central feature of the whole RTS portion of the game at this point to be able to have complete control over everyone, but doesn't it seem like it will become problematic at some point? Arguments are welcome, of course, and if you know something I don't about the development, then by all means embarrass me in front of everyone.

[Marcuss2]

Added to suggestions list

[DrSalvador]

I don't see what you mean, you control everyone because they're part of your group. That's basically it. And Marcuss do you just add everything to your list? lol

[Duck]

I like this idea, it would work well with my towns, and factions suggestion. Micromanaging your army, and squads is fine. But with mining, farming, and town building you will have a lot of people that are part of your faction. These are people you can of course order around but they wouldn't necessarily be part of your core group.

[Finson]

I don't see what you mean, you control everyone because they're part of your group. That's basically it. And Marcuss do you just add everything to your list? lol

Yeah, but I think there needs to be a distinction between an inner circle and your hirelings. Right now, these mercenary-type characters are extremely flat, with no idiosyncrasies, background, preferences, or personal belongings. You don't even give them a weekly pay. Seems like you'd at least need a lot of charisma to pull that off. It seems like there should be times where they can, I don't know, decide to gamble instead of doing their job or something. I of course wouldn't expect any of that at this phase in development, but it doesn't look like it's aiming to develop your characters to that point, because there's no point at which they aren't under your complete control. Not sure if I'm making myself understood here. Does all that make sense? It seems like free will for the people in your faction is a complete non-issue at this point, and I don't see how it will eventually be developed with the current model in place. It could just be an alpha issue, but I think it will need some kind of overhaul to implement free will in the faction. That's what I'm trying to say.

[DrSalvador]

I'd personally rather have the hired people be smart AI followers instead of controlled units. And yeah a weekly pay system woud be cool, once a day\night system is implemented

[MrSpike]

I completely understand where you are coming from with this!

I am a big fan of having a protagonist / hero whom I associate with myself, and having a following of characters under said person. (similar to mount and blade's party system)
I find the same problems of micromanagement , I want my lackeys to be non-controllable directly but have commands such as "come with me", "wait here / at base camp","tend the farms/mine/go to work","lot nearby bodies","sell your junk items" etc. i'm sure you get the point.
the whole premisce of this makes management feel more like a leadership than a group of equals.

Ideally one directly controllable person and your hired men to give tasks. I think it has a lot of potential.
(Imagine being able to designate particular men to just loot the most expensive items for you, having you own trade group with guards assigned and pack mules assigned.
could ramble about this forever...

[AlmightyDirtyJake]

Ideally one directly controllable person and your hired men to give tasks. I think it has a lot of potential.
(Imagine being able to designate particular men to just loot the most expensive items for you, having you own trade group with guards assigned and pack mules assigned.
could ramble about this forever...

This is what got my attention. I'd love to see this implemented.

[zibathy]

This has been over a hundred times and addressed by Chris at least twice. You will NEVER PAY WAGES. Deal with it. It's stupid micromanagement. Nobody would like it. When "you" die, and they have no source of income anymore, your entire faction would disband. You have no main character. Stop pretending like this is like any other RTS game.

With that said, they're not followers. You don't exist in this game. There is no leader. You have no primary character. They're all just people. You're not micromanaging other people because there's nobody to do that except you, who doesn't technically exist. There are no leaders, there is no hierarchy, if a "leader" is capable of being selected, he's not going to micromanage anything because you're the one who created and grew your faction. You control everyone already. I'm not going to get Sally to make sure she pays her taxes to the emperor when there are 5,000 Sallys.

Everyone is united by you, which I like to imagine as an idea. An idea of a faction that believes whatever you want it to be. For me, they all share the idea that the "Followers of Erebus" are destined to conquer everyone because, lets say, my main character Zeus told them that they were destined for great things. To annihilate everyone in the name of Erebus, and to expand until the whole world bloats with the Followers' numbers. When Zeus dies, they will carry on his idea. Not because they like making 50 cats a week, but because they were inspired by him and believe that his idea must be spread. And they will take the idea to the grave. You are the idea that drives their every decision and choice.

Your idea is not just for any peasant, you have a specific group of loyal followers who you each individually recruited and inspired (and even designed). They don't just fall apart when someone gets hurt or things get difficult. It basically is a cult.



tl;dr No. If you recruited them, they are controlled by you. END OF RINE. DING DONG BANNU

[zibathy]

When Jesus went around saying, "Yo. Christianity." People didn't go, "WELL AM I GAWNA GIT PAID WEEEKLIE!?!?!?!??!" No. They followed him. Not like they had anything better to do back 2,000 years ago in the desert we call the Middle East.

You live in a pitiful wasteland barely clinging to your meaningless life, and a man comes into town claiming you will mean something. You will rise and create the greatest menace ever known to man. You can join him, and conquer, and spread glory, and plunder the spoils of war, and fight and die in glorious combat. Except when you die, you won't just be another worthless victim to starvation or dehydration, you will be remembered as a great warrior for as long as the faction remains. You can do all this and more, or just be some peasant in some meaningless city in the middle of nowhere. I know all of you would refuse this offer, but I can tell you, in a world like Kenshi's you'd be an idiot not to accept.

So in the face of these offers, you, someone who's meaningless, asks this prophet for a daily wage? Uhm, no. Fuck no. There are thousands of people even more desperate for glory. What gives you the right to make such demands? Like you're some proud mercenary sitting in some pub getting drunk? Yeah, okay. Go ahead and ask for a pay check in order to be in a brotherhood that will feed, clothe you, train you, fight along side you, and run through a hail of arrows just to pick you up and carry your ass to safety, when they ask nothing more than your loyalty in return.

Seriously guys. Have fun selling that idea.

[Blxz]

Awesome mini rant. While I do agree and have posted similar (although in fewer words) elsewhere recently I just want to let you know that you can edit posts and add extra stuff to the end rather than setting up a new double post ~10 minutes after the last one. I know its not against forum rules but it is generally considered bad etiquette to double post.

Still, love the passion.

[zibathy]

Okie dokie artichokie.
Thanks

[Beckz]

I think a good compromise for the proposed "non-control" units is:

- you have your band of "heroes" the way it is already in the game
-> they fight, loot, build, work and quest as you please

- and in addition with increasing fame/popularity or what ever of your faction you can get followers/slaves
-> followers will come to your "public" settlements and work at your machines and produce resources
-> slaves have to be bought and assigned to a settlement were they will work

- there could be further conditions like every follower needs a bed and slaves try to flee if there are to few guards in the settlement ... and so on

[matt81093]

Dun, dun, dun. New here. So ello.

Anyway, adding to this. I'm for the more recent suggestion to a degree (said by Beckz).

I'm thinking of a system where you can directly control some people, and others are played by the AI. BUT you have the option of at any time controlling them. I'll explain what I mean.

You have your core group build a town. It gains fame and such, or is a really good trade area. People come to your town and ask to join it and work. So you let them. But at a later time you need someone from that town to do something else. So you request them to join your group. They can dialogue with you and either agree or disagree. With a chance of them completely denying you and leaving your town.

Or you can have travelers/traders come to your town and wish to instead travel with you. (You can of course tell them no, or request that they work in the town instead. Dialogue ending varying. (Either them staying or leaving, with possible relation damage.)) Added to that the people you pay to join you, or the people you slave, ect.

So another way of looking at it happened while I was writing this. A passive vs active thing (group thing?).

Those who join your main group (not your town) are completely loyal to your. Traders/travelers and such aren't forced to be even after joining your town. You can request that they travel with you as fighters/ect and they can choose to leave. People in your main group will listen to you and if you want them to go work (live?) in a town they will do so without question and join you later when asked. (Was also considering the cult idea when writing this.)

Simultaneously writing and expanding my idea can be a bugger. Anywho. That's it. I hope it's clear enough. If I need to revise something to be more clear, I will. (I'll probably look over it later and possibly reword it.) Expanded a little here: http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... 325#p37325