Deflecting arrows skill - for future ranged weapons

[Potocobe]

I would like to see a skill for deflecting incoming arrows/harpoons with a sword. Like in a good martial arts movie. Like luke skywalker catching blaster bolts. A master swordsman should be practically immune to arrows coming at them from the front. Arrows in the back from sneaky ninjas should still work, naturally. This way the AI can still field armies full of crossbow militia which are only there to deal with the enemies crossbow militia and the hardcore warriors can still close the distance and scrap.

I think of it like knights or samurai being surrounded by lesser soldiers on the field of battle. Most of your troops aren't going to be amazing warriors. They are going to be there to mitigate the numbers of conscripts the enemy brings to the field while your warriors close and deal the serious damage. This means that the majority of an army are going to be less trained which makes a weapon like a crossbow a natural choice for an untrained peasant. They get their one shot to take down an enemy soldier, likely also wielding a crossbow and then they close to melee. As a general I would want all of my soldiers to have a shot at crippling the enemy before they needed to put themselves in greater danger by going sword to sword.

The idea of ranged weapons naturally brings about the idea of shields which naturally changes the dynamics of warfare in a game about swordplay. If not shields then what? I say a flick of the wrist and a keen eye should take the place of shields. Any swordsman worth their salt should be able to swat away an incoming missile.

[iSuck345]

I wold rather have it called "projectile defense", since an harpoon is NOT an arrow.

[Kamos]

Deflecting a crossbow bolt? A harpoon gun? That's a lot of power and speed come at you.
An arrow I could slightly see, though unlikely.
Throwing knives and javelins certainly.

[Mattk50]

T'is a game, though. In reality, katanas and stuff suck vs european broadswords and the big sabres and stuff like the fragment axe would be entirely unusable. But they are in because of the cool factor and the style of the game.

[Santaissick]

In reality, blocking crossbow bolts and stuff with only sword is really hard. Maybe possible put it's not a thing anyone "tries" because they are good in it or it will save their lives. They do it because they don't have time to dodge or any other way. Actually, I don't think they try it even then. It's pure luck, you happen to have your sword in just right place and arrow hits it and bounces other way.

Then again, this is only a game. If we don't get shields, we need something to fight against arrows and bolts and harpoons IMHO. Maybe this is the way. I really can't think much else.

[Wilcol]

T'is a game, though. In reality, katanas and stuff suck vs european broadswords and the big sabres and stuff like the fragment axe would be entirely unusable. But they are in because of the cool factor and the style of the game.

Katanas are crap against Broadswords? I'm pretty sure Japanese steel was of higher quality.

[Mattk50]

T'is a game, though. In reality, katanas and stuff suck vs european broadswords and the big sabres and stuff like the fragment axe would be entirely unusable. But they are in because of the cool factor and the style of the game.

Katanas are crap against Broadswords? I'm pretty sure Japanese steel was of higher quality.

You have it backwards. Not only was japanese steel far inferior due to the low quality ore they had there, but the designs were very dated and made little advancement while european swords advanced further. You have to remember, there was none of the more advanced plate armor in japan when europe had it, so their swords could afford to be shitty while european ones had to advance to crash through heavy plate. katanas are only made for cutting through unarmored peasants, in summary.

[HamSpanker]

In reality, blocking crossbow bolts and stuff with only sword is really hard. Maybe possible put it's not a thing anyone "tries" because they are good in it or it will save their lives. They do it because they don't have time to dodge or any other way. Actually, I don't think they try it even then. It's pure luck, you happen to have your sword in just right place and arrow hits it and bounces other way.

Then again, this is only a game. If we don't get shields, we need something to fight against arrows and bolts and harpoons IMHO. Maybe this is the way. I really can't think much else.

Theres a show called stan lee's super humans or something and there was a guy able to cleave a water while it was dropping mid air. He would perhaps be able to cut over arrows. I'm also thinking that you don't have to cut the arrow, bolt or harpoon over, but simply turn your sword so the flat side is pointing towards the enemy, and the arrows would hit thesword instead of him. Sort of like a long thin shield

[Marilous]

T'is a game, though. In reality, katanas and stuff suck vs european broadswords and the big sabres and stuff like the fragment axe would be entirely unusable. But they are in because of the cool factor and the style of the game.

Katanas are crap against Broadswords? I'm pretty sure Japanese steel was of higher quality.

You have it backwards. Not only was japanese steel far inferior due to the low quality ore they had there, but the designs were very dated and made little advancement while european swords advanced further. You have to remember, there was none of the more advanced plate armor in japan when europe had it, so their swords could afford to be shitty while european ones had to advance to crash through heavy plate. katanas are only made for cutting through unarmored peasants, in summary.

European swords were made of a superior steel because the quality of metal in japan is crap, swords really weren't the main method of combat though (In japan or Europe) and Japanese swords for the most part developed in the era of the western firearm in a theater of war where there was little to no armor, with very good techniques for folding steel which made the blade incredibly sharp but also hard and brittle because of the low quality of ore. Swords as a whole didn't work against armor, chain and plate turn aside blades which is why the mace became very popular.

As far as being able to deflect arrows there is a dodge skill going in, should make for a decent system of avoiding ranged weaponry and its already on the skill list.

[Mattk50]

Eh, im fairly sure the swords were developed far before guns were on the scene as a staying power in combat.

[iSuck345]

I think it should be the same as parry, which is dodge all kind of atacks and that is defined by agility. I can already see my characted do a matrix... awww yeah...

[Shidan]

You do realize the is already a skill named "Arrow Defence" its just not available yet.

[wolfwood296]

ok how did this topic go to steel swords and stuff.

first Europeans didn't have steel swords since no one knew how to make them, what they did have was meteroric iron which was very little and any weapon created from it was considered magical, the rare swords were very strong and probobley could beat a japanesse sword IF that the only factor was the sword (and even then I have no idea since idk anything about japan's weapons). I don't know why you guys think that there were only unarmored peasants while we have picures of samuri full armor, which is stronger than the mail and partial plate armor Europeans had.

ok now back to the topic. I concur with matt about this being a game and can't be completely realistic so I think the arrow defense I awesome except you shouldn't be able to use certain swords to block an arrow. I think heavy weapons like the fragment ax could be placed as a shield and would then block arrows but katanas wouldn't be able to deflect an arrow or bolt than to change it trajectory a degree or two, also there would have to be set backs to it especially if you try to block a bolt if not a harpoon, the bolt at least dent the weapon badly but the harpoon would completely snap the weapon and keep going through the person.

[Harpuea]

I agree that arrow deflecting skill should be added in the game. Regarding the issue of realism, that is how skilled swordsmen defend others and themselves if they see it coming.

Here's two video of a Kanja (The Korean equivalent of a Ninja) not only blocking arrows from a draw, but also catching arrows as well. He did point out that blocking arrows to protect others is easier than doing it for yourself and you should train to protect others first.

http://youtu.be/mKamVyiqpro

http://youtu.be/r_0MfxQ9hqE

http://youtu.be/nyfVaZ5bx98

That would be awesome if Kenshi have those skills. If an enemy arrow come flying at your comrades, the person in front can intercept it. If it comes straight at you, block it if you are skilled enough. If your character is OP like god, catch the arrow then shoot it back.

If you keep an open mind and learn from the Korean branch of "Ninjutsu" and browse the rest of his videos, it will enlighten and broaden your view and knowledge of Japanese Ninjutsu and its secrets. For some reason, people just hate the idea of Korea having similar assassin and shadow arts. Maybe he spilled too many secrets that they would like to keep.

[Mask]

With the steel discussion: European steel and Japanese steel are similar enough that you can't tell one from the other, without a lot of training. In combat, the iron used has much less effect than the design of the blade and the skill of the wielder.

Now, which is a better design of blade? Neither. Each has advantages... but neither is good against armour, and both of them can literally cut a man in half (the record for cutting through bodies in a single sword stroke is about seven--done with corpses a long time ago).


Is there a bodyguard mode in Kenshi? If so, that'd be the only situation where thwacking the arrows would make sense. The complexity of animating and coding it, however, might be considerable.

[Scotterius]

Now, which is a better design of blade? Neither. Each has advantages... but neither is good against armour

Nonsense. Straight edged blades are clearly superior to curved ones just because they can defeat flexible armors. A straight edged blade strike transfers its energy kinetically. All of its energy on a swing is focused on a very small strike area and it breaks bones and destroys tissue even if the sword never penetrates the armor. This is why long swords were used along with chain mail...and curved blades vanished...until soldiers stopped wearing armor.

Really, Katanas were only successful against peasants and prisoners. But, reality kind of sucks. Many surviving Katanas are truly works of art, and their asthetic is unique. While never as technologically advanced as Medieval Europe, Japan's sword making was extremely refined. Its the Myth of the Katana, that is so appealing.

But back on topic: I really like the idea of jedi-like arrow deflecting. Not from a realism stand point, but just because it sounds awesome. It also presents an opportunity to distinguish harpoons from bolts. The harpoons could be unblockable, giving your sword masters a reason to be sneaky.

[Chimp]

Well to help with the skill, there are shoulder pads/shoulder armor on Samurai armor in the past, like so.

http://prntscr.com/pzirv
http://prntscr.com/pzivl
http://prntscr.com/pziyy

With these shoulder armors of varying sizes on the Samurai, this could easily be ported to Kenshi in Kenshi style armor and if not on the shoulders, could be on the arms so the wearer can easily deflect arrows and crossbow bolts. There'd by varying sizes of course, whether someone wants to wear large or small, but regardless, it'd make deflecting arrows in this game more realistic.

[Scotterius]

Aw man, forget realism. Jedi action is so much cooler! I really love that idea. It adds depth, and puts range weapons in the role of fodder removal. If you need to kill a real tough important NPC, you are going to have to get in sword range.

I think Jedi level deflection is a good target. They can still be overwhelmed, but it is chancey. It just sounds like so much fun to me.

[Mask]

Now, which is a better design of blade? Neither. Each has advantages... but neither is good against armour

Nonsense. Straight edged blades are clearly superior to curved ones just because they can defeat flexible armors. A straight edged blade strike transfers its energy kinetically. All of its energy on a swing is focused on a very small strike area and it breaks bones and destroys tissue even if the sword never penetrates the armor. This is why long swords were used along with chain mail...and curved blades vanished...until soldiers stopped wearing armor.

Really, Katanas were only successful against peasants and prisoners. But, reality kind of sucks. Many surviving Katanas are truly works of art, and their asthetic is unique. While never as technologically advanced as Medieval Europe, Japan's sword making was extremely refined. Its the Myth of the Katana, that is so appealing.

But back on topic: I really like the idea of jedi-like arrow deflecting. Not from a realism stand point, but just because it sounds awesome. It also presents an opportunity to distinguish harpoons from bolts. The harpoons could be unblockable, giving your sword masters a reason to be sneaky.

They wore mail in the Middle East, too. They still used a lot of curved blade.
Swords aren't that great for breaking bones. Axes and clubs are far better for that purpose--though, due to myths that cropped up in Victorian times, there is still the unfortunate idea of swords as heavy bashing implements that has lingered in some circles. Swords are generally made to look more common in armies then they usually were, in popular media--not to say there weren't a lot of them around still, but they were almost always your secondary weapon.

Really, katana were never battlefield weapons. If you want to compare the katana to a poleaxe or spear, I would make like the Samurai--and choose the polearm immediately. Katana were weapons of peace--something you carried around town with you, and used to kill other warriors in duels, or slay thugs who attack you. While there are ways to fight armoured opponents with Japanese and European longswords (some people went to a lot of trouble working out amazing techniques to this end) it is really not practical, and would be your last resort in most cases.

The myth of the katana has been thoroughly disturbing throughout. First they talked about it cutting through the barrels of stationary machine guns, leading to cartoons making them sword-breakers and able to cut through concrete. Then, it went too far in the other direction, following an anti-Japanese sentiment that "their iron is poor quality", "katanas are brittle", "longswords can cut through steel armour but katanas can't". None of those things are true (except that, yes, katana can't cut through steel armour). Japan has a steel industry which does quite well, their iron isn't of bad quality (their old system of creating Jewel Steel is to get a high quality steel). Katanas are no more brittle than other swords (which in turn are NOT brittle)--you need to keep a good balance of strength, cutting edge, and flexibility when making a sword, so that it won't chip and will last.

There are people who have been studying swords, own the swords, use the swords regularly in tests, and argue about which is better. This has been going on for decades, since before the internet. Do a search and you'll find threads going on to infinitum about which is better, with neither side gaining ground. If you disagree with what I say, that's fine. I'm always happy to see people interested in swords and their mechanics. If you like, I can list some of the material I have found quite instructive in the workings of medieval technology--you might find some of it very interesting.


Back on Topic: That would create a lot of problems, if you could only block missiles and harpoons were unblockable. Their high damage potential should be enough to warrant sneaking.

[Scotterius]

Back on Topic: That would create a lot of problems, if you could only block missiles and harpoons were unblockable. Their high damage potential should be enough to warrant sneaking.

Well if they were defeatable by blocking, they could be less dangerous than conventional ranged arms. The greater rate of fire and numbers of conventional ranged weapon should result in a much higher DPS. Many more effective strikes would occur resulting in more damage and crippling effects, even if harpoon hits were 'one-shot incapacitations'.

It seems acceptable to me that crossbow bolts are deflectable but balista bolts are not. Besides casualties resulting from charging static heavy defenses, what are the problems you are concerned with?