Firearms?

[Ozark Tempses]

Yes but we are only assuming these musquets use round bullets. Maybe we can use bolts, like in Warhammer 40000(in less futuristic of course). And we could also create vials of poison or acid to lauch. Like on the M1 Garand which use a grenade laucher named the M7. The concept is nice and can fit.

[Harpuea]

I have skim through the threads and I understand both sides of the argument. I think I have a solution for the existence of firearms. 1 word: Kevlar.

Kevlar are great at absorbing the impact of bullets; HOWEVER, are lousy at resisting cuts and stabs from swords and arrowheads. Now you can both justify existence of swords and guns with the theme/story of post apocalyptic world. Kevlar is a synthetic polymer so its availability should be extremely rare. Luckily, a natural polymer such as Silk and cotton can be used as a cheap(er) alternative, but needs more layer and hence wore weight. The Koreans made bullet proof vests and faced Americans firearms before. Since it was cotton, they was able to cheaply field them and fight on par with firearms they faced. The Mongols actually wear silk, not to totally nullify arrows , but so they can pull the arrows from their wounds easier since the Silk strands gets pulled into the wound. This mechanic could also be used to balance out bows and bolts.

Now if you are looking for a fight with factions that employ firearms, just roll with bullet resistant armor. When fighting against people with bullet resistant armor, just slice and dice them or fill them with arrows.

sources:

Kevlar only stop bullets, not cutting weapons. It is common knowledge, but here are some explanation if you are not convinced.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_ ... vels.shtml

From the website:

Vests provide excellent protection against most SLASHING attacks - but are not as effective against THRUSTING attacks with daggers or ice picks.

Pointed and streamlined objects such as an ice picks, arrowheads, and knives, etc. can penetrate if THRUST with enough force. Because of the “pointedness” they can get in-between the Aramid fiber weave to penetrate. We do offer some of our models with a special aramid weave to provide stab-resistant AND ballistic protection.

Obviously having any ballistic vest on is better than nothing between you and a knife attack – but it is not as "bullet-proof" as the pistol protection offered:

“It should be noted that concealable ballistic-resistant body armor is potentially vulnerable to knife attack; hence, all officers should exercise due caution when confronted with these situations.

However, numerous incidents have been documented in which body armor lessened injury.”



Korean cotton bullet resistant vest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myeonje_baegab

http://www.ilbe.com/files/attach/images ... 9aa4a2.jpg

What is the implication of having bullet resistant armors? Now swordsmen can charge gunmen if they equip themselves right. They cannot be effectively one shotted by firearms. Bullet resistant armor is not the end all be all armor either, they suck at defending against classical weapons such as swords and arrows. Now you have to think about what armor and weapon you are going to use. Maybe have a mixture in the group. Risk only having armored plates and be dominated by hail of gun fire. Or all wearing ballistic vests and helmets and suddenly facing a barrage of arrows/forest of swords and everyone drops.

[Mattk50]

im not really a fan of such drastic rock paper scissor mechanics as armor types that can only do one thing.

bows will be essentially the same function as guns anyways, i dont see the issue. a mod could replace it will guns if you really wanted.

[Kadoink]

I would personally rather not see firearms in the game, how ever if they were to be added, if weapon decay is going to be added, make the guns extremely fragile so they can't withstand more than a few shots before needing repairs and make quality ammo harder to find so if players want to make some it will be cheap and even harder on the weapons. Just my two cents

[Naiba]

Guns would kill the charm of this game...

[iSuck345]

I have skim through the threads and I understand both sides of the argument. I think I have a solution for the existence of firearms. 1 word: Kevlar.

Kevlar are great at absorbing the impact of bullets; HOWEVER, are lousy at resisting cuts and stabs from swords and arrowheads. Now you can both justify existence of swords and guns with the theme/story of post apocalyptic world. Kevlar is a synthetic polymer so its availability should be extremely rare. Luckily, a natural polymer such as Silk and cotton can be used as a cheap(er) alternative, but needs more layer and hence wore weight. The Koreans made bullet proof vests and faced Americans firearms before. Since it was cotton, they was able to cheaply field them and fight on par with firearms they faced. The Mongols actually wear silk, not to totally nullify arrows , but so they can pull the arrows from their wounds easier since the Silk strands gets pulled into the wound. This mechanic could also be used to balance out bows and bolts.

Now if you are looking for a fight with factions that employ firearms, just roll with bullet resistant armor. When fighting against people with bullet resistant armor, just slice and dice them or fill them with arrows.

sources:

Kevlar only stop bullets, not cutting weapons. It is common knowledge, but here are some explanation if you are not convinced.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballistic_ ... vels.shtml

From the website:

Vests provide excellent protection against most SLASHING attacks - but are not as effective against THRUSTING attacks with daggers or ice picks.

Pointed and streamlined objects such as an ice picks, arrowheads, and knives, etc. can penetrate if THRUST with enough force. Because of the “pointedness” they can get in-between the Aramid fiber weave to penetrate. We do offer some of our models with a special aramid weave to provide stab-resistant AND ballistic protection.

Obviously having any ballistic vest on is better than nothing between you and a knife attack – but it is not as "bullet-proof" as the pistol protection offered:

“It should be noted that concealable ballistic-resistant body armor is potentially vulnerable to knife attack; hence, all officers should exercise due caution when confronted with these situations.

However, numerous incidents have been documented in which body armor lessened injury.”



Korean cotton bullet resistant vest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myeonje_baegab

http://www.ilbe.com/files/attach/images ... 9aa4a2.jpg

What is the implication of having bullet resistant armors? Now swordsmen can charge gunmen if they equip themselves right. They cannot be effectively one shotted by firearms. Bullet resistant armor is not the end all be all armor either, they suck at defending against classical weapons such as swords and arrows. Now you have to think about what armor and weapon you are going to use. Maybe have a mixture in the group. Risk only having armored plates and be dominated by hail of gun fire. Or all wearing ballistic vests and helmets and suddenly facing a barrage of arrows/forest of swords and everyone drops.

One word that beats kevlar: dragonskin. This armor has been bought already by multiple SWAT teams, but it still can't be used because some millitary tests weren't made. However, they have tested with many balistics, and they have seen it stop explosions AND DONT USE THIS AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR BOMBS! Still, I wish that were wold be an alternative resource to gunpowder, one that wold not allow bombs.

[Naiba]

Body armour capable of stopping bullets and explosions is just as capable of stopping knives and swords... I still don’t know why anyone would want to add guns to a game with swords in, called “swordsman”, that’s about fights with swords…

*I mean mods, sure, but why the big push for having them in the stock game by people?

[Ioae]

Body armour capable of stopping bullets and explosions is just as capable of stopping knives and swords... I still don’t know why anyone would want to add guns to a game with swords in, called “swordsman”, that’s about fights with swords…

*I mean mods, sure, but why the big push for having them in the stock game by people?

Kevlar armor that may be very resistant to bullets is useless against knife wounds unless it's been specifically manufactured to handle both.

As for your question...

Because people like variety?

As an RTS-RPG Hybrid, the base of both of those games is variety. You don't launch up guild wars 2, select one single race, one single class, one single weapon, and play through for 5 years. No, you try out different things, different tactics, and different variations. That is how we humans adapt and operate. People like to have a choice.

Just because the name of the game is "Swordsman" does not mean that is all it has to be about. Chris has already planned ranged weapons. There is no reason to believe that ranged weapons such as the bow and crossbow can not make the jump to the arquebus or musket. All were in use at the same time for several centuries. Gunpowder weapons have been in use as early as the 10th century China. They have operated both in and out of "melee" environments well into the 17th century. That's six hundred years of combat that still emphasized the sword and spear over the musket. I know a lot of people have fears that the game will just be a late game musket fest, but that can easily be balanced out through numerous measures.

One option is bullet resistant armor, ala tosei gusoku (or "new armor") that was iron plate based and put into use after the introduction of matchlock firearms by the Portugese in Japan. This will remove the argument that it _has_ to be a one hit kill to coincide with realism. In reality, most deaths that occurred on the battlefield before the advent of disinfectant was from disease. Bullet wounds, and the shock caused by them was not the killer of battlefield soldiers. It was the shock, infection, and dispersion of lead and other poisons through the bloodstream.

Another option is unreliability. The Arquebus, Matchlock, and Flintlock rifles were all notoriously unreliable. This is especially true before the invention of mass produced parts. If a part of a rifle failed in the field, soldiers could not readily repair it with parts from another weapon - a trained gunsmith would have to repair the item. These weapons can fail, especially so in the environment that Kenshi is involved in - desert, sand, grit, and other factors can all make these weapons useless. Still powerful, but useless if something goes wrong.

There's a push to get it into the stock game because A. The Developer would then (hopefully) continue to improve upon it and refine it. B. It will likely be better quality/better balancing than any mod if only due to the developers innate knowledge of the game and how it works, and C. Because people are allowed to request things be in the game? Doesn't mean it has to happen.

[Marilous]

I personally have 0 interest in seeing guns get put into Kenshi, looking forward to bows though.

[iSuck345]

I personally have 0 interest in seeing guns get put into Kenshi, looking forward to bows though.

I'm looking foward towars a mod only of firearms in Kenshi... and canons... and giant electric rods who shoot lighting... that have a van graff generator... obviously, a reference to Command and Conquer: Red Alert, Soviet of course... ans the looser of the war wold have to wear his underpants in his head... for the rest of his life...

[Clawdius Talonious]

I personally have 0 interest in seeing guns get put into Kenshi, looking forward to bows though.

I'm looking foward towars a mod only of firearms in Kenshi... and canons... and giant electric rods who shoot lighting... that have a van graff generator... obviously, a reference to Command and Conquer: Red Alert, Soviet of course... ans the looser of the war wold have to wear his underpants in his head... for the rest of his life...

I'd play it, of course, I would much prefer a mod that adds stillsuits, sandworms, thumpers, and maker hooks. I'd say a Crysknife would be great fun as well, but since we're lacking the animations for knife fighting I don't know about all that.

[iSuck345]

I personally have 0 interest in seeing guns get put into Kenshi, looking forward to bows though.

I'm looking foward towars a mod only of firearms in Kenshi... and canons... and giant electric rods who shoot lighting... that have a van graff generator... obviously, a reference to Command and Conquer: Red Alert, Soviet of course... ans the looser of the war wold have to wear his underpants in his head... for the rest of his life...

I'd play it, of course, I would much prefer a mod that adds stillsuits, sandworms, thumpers, and maker hooks. I'd say a Crysknife would be great fun as well, but since we're lacking the animations for knife fighting I don't know about all that.

What about gas masks, radiation, mutants and genocides?

[Blxz]

I'd say a Crysknife would be great fun as well, but since we're lacking the animations for knife fighting I don't know about all that.

Martial arts will be implemented. Any sort of hand to hand animations should be able to be repurposed for knife fighting. It might not look 100% authentic but I'm sure it could do a passable job from a modders perspective. And they could go the hard yards and make new animations if they wanted. People have done that with mods for some total war games, for example.

[Potocobe]

I still can't get around the research aspect of Kenshi. If we can research new things to make such as better weapons and armor how will we improve the ranged weapons? You can only improve the bow and arrow so much. Crossbows have their limitations as well. I can suspend disbelief pretty well but can't ignore common sense for too long. Firearms were actually invented for a good reason. They work and are effective. The only reasonable way to exclude firearms from a game of this sort is to explain it away in the fiction of the setting. Otherwise, firearms should be a forgone conclusion. A natural progression in arms research as people look for ways to keep crazy sword wielding ninjas from stabbing them.

I don't think one-shot head shot kills would ever be cool with a ranged weapon but I don't see how you can avoid that. I one shot kill whole swaths of fools in my current game with a long topper. I mean, I can throw a rock and knock someone out from farther away than sword fighting range. A force of sling wielding skinny weaklings could ruin a squad of swordsmen.

Variety is the spice of life. Give me the same variety the swords get for ranged weapons. The mechanics won't change really. Only the tactics will be affected. Different reload speeds and ranges. Just like crossbows and bows. Would love a way to zip a couple of sharp objects into my enemy so that they are bleeding before I get to them. Bow and arrows fill that role. Crossbows too. But give me some variety here. What else can throw a sharp/blunt object at a person? Explosive driven bullets of course. Spring loaded rifles or pistols, sling shots, gas powered spear guns or modified paintball guns throwing ball bearings.

Can we all at least agree that various projectiles will surely be modded into the game at some point?
Can we limit our request for various projectiles besides bows and Xbows to something along the lines of 'at least make room in the code for many different types'?
Can we agree that any effort towards adding content for firearms or other ranged weapons be saved till closer to the end of production if at all?

The question of should firearms be in the game is moot. They will be through mods for certain.
I think the question should be how many and how to balance them so they don't ruin the swordplay but enhance it.

[Mattk50]

I still can't get around the research aspect of Kenshi. If we can research new things to make such as better weapons and armor how will we improve the ranged weapons?

Same way as swords and plates of defensive metal, this isnt a problem. Why would it be?

[Scotterius]

Potocobe started a thread in feature request on the topic of range weapon deflection skill. It is a great way to have range weapons of all types coexisting with sword play. I know it might seem strange at first to imagine jedi-like deflection capability, but I think it fits so well.

Keshi already embraces the 'Katana Myth', and deflecting bullets is part of it. It also gives Katana users a potential long run advantage over slower more damaging heavy weapons, that being the higher rate of speed makes it easier to deflect projectiles.

[Marilous]

If it does get added into the game I hope that it is like a max skill level of ten or so to represent that you can only ever get so good with an inaccurate weapon, but that you get to lvl 10 or so quickly to represent that it is easy to learn. Could make for rallying up a low skill rabble to partake in the battle with an easy to learn but not terribly accurate or effective weapon. If you want the research to be able to advance i'd hate to see rifles and such, but maybe bayonet research to make them half passable at close range against other fodder would be an option.

With Scotterius' comment I kinda like the idea of my athletic katana fighters charging across the screen deflecting bullets and smashing into the line to rip the low skill gunman apart.

[wolfwood296]

no I get the deflecting arrows and maybe crossbow but I am almost 100% positive that blocking a bullet without plate armor or a shield is impossible.

but plate armor can, its has been show in the deadlist warriors pirate vs knight (pirate wins which is stupid) that their flintlock pistol could only dent the plate armor, and that's without the added layer or metal that a would be their if it hit a shield first.

the reason I can't fathom a katana deflecting a bullet is cause you got something that is going faster than 70 mph (speed of crossbow) at you which you can't see until its either has hit you or the ground. and deflecting arrows in the middle of battle with a sword is nearly impossible let alone trying to look for a flying bullet while blocking someone else.

[Scotterius]

I am almost 100% positive that blocking a bullet without plate armor or a shield is impossible.

Well so is making a bed out of steel bars, but we do it in Kenshi (I even havent heard a complaint!)

I could name a few movies when katanas were used to deflect bullets (including: every Ninja movie in the 1980s). I am sure what you said is very likely true, but the 'katana myth' allows deflection of bullets too.

[wolfwood296]

you don't need to go look for a ninja movie its shown in wolverine origins (dude cuts a bullet in halt) but these have been blown by myth busters since they tested if someone could catch a sword blade in between their hands and he couldn't do it (they also tested a few more things but I don't remember what).


this is up for Chris decide to be in the actual game so I say we all stop the repeated posting of fire arms since its not our decision its his (or someone who wants do mod it in (then he/she should go to modding section)).

lastly how did we get to deflecting stuff?