I have seen posts for ranged weapons in the past speculating the different weapons that could become a part of Kenshi through content releases or mods, but I have never seen a post dedicated to ammunition for these ranged weapons.
Since turrets have been introduced, everyone seems to be receiving them with incredibly positive feedback, so now seems like the opportune time to start thinking about the impact ammunition could have on current, and future, gameplay.
Personally, I think adding another branch of industry dedicated to the creation of ammunition for different types of ranged weapons couldn't be a negative thing.
With the current limit of 20 squad members, I am capable of achieving a thinly stretched balance which allows me to dedicate some members to base defense and the rest to economical endeavors.
Even with this setup, I am still able to focus the economic half of my squad to produce some goods, but this requires constant upkeep and micromanagement to maintain a smooth workflow (not to mention plenty backpacks).
Adding a new industry to my current setup would force my economic squad to shrink due to the necessity to maintain the stockpiles of ammunition for the turrets used for base defense, lest I return to... the dark ages, before turrets existed...
BUT
I would gladly welcome new industrial endeavors to my base simply because it will add realism and enjoyable strategic gameplay in the long-term; even more when multiple squads are implemented.
Thoughts?
Ammunition for Turrets
I am not sure if it would make the game more fun tbh...
As I see it, we'll have alot more to do in the future:
Batteries to store electricity.
Get fuel for the generators.
Get leather for leather armours.
Depending on how much work/workforce is needed for these, making ammunition for turrets *might* be a good idea imo. I just think it's too early to call.
As I see it, we'll have alot more to do in the future:
Batteries to store electricity.
Get fuel for the generators.
Get leather for leather armours.
Depending on how much work/workforce is needed for these, making ammunition for turrets *might* be a good idea imo. I just think it's too early to call.
I agree its too early now, but its something to take into consideration now that turrets have been added.
I think it could be as simple as adding an "Input" slot to the turrets that will allow stacks of <insert arbitrary number here> bolts that will deplete by 1 each time it is loaded.
I foresee this causing another issue as well since right now, every turret unloads itself each time the game is loaded, but that could be an easy fix.
I think it could be as simple as adding an "Input" slot to the turrets that will allow stacks of <insert arbitrary number here> bolts that will deplete by 1 each time it is loaded.
I foresee this causing another issue as well since right now, every turret unloads itself each time the game is loaded, but that could be an easy fix.
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Hatsune_Neko
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could also lead to ammo needs for when they are hand held. and those ensuing problems.
Do you believe the sexes should be equal?
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Then Men would become unmanageable
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Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
I think this'll also prove to be important in late game when you seige other people's towns. If a town doesn't have the ability to produce ammo, then it would be a good idea to bait out what ammo they have before making a full siege. Attrition, etc.
It would also be incredibly interesting if there will siege weapons in the future.Tolwrath wrote:I think this'll also prove to be important in late game when you seige other people's towns. If a town doesn't have the ability to produce ammo, then it would be a good idea to bait out what ammo they have before making a full siege. Attrition, etc.
Think about it.. towers dotting the walls that are massive enough to house siege weaponry similar to this image:
In Dynasty Warriors, this is known as an arbalest, but this is a fictional rendition of the siege-sized repeating crossbow (an actual arbalest descended from this but looks more like a handheld, steampunk European crossbow). Though its still really cool!
Those that assault towns would also have siege weaponry to assist them.
Things such as hay-covered wooden shields (which protect against, and allow collection, of projectiles), siege ladders, or possibly even tunneling underneath the wall.
Alas, I am getting off topic, but the bigger siege turrets would have to use unique ammunition, and I believe there should be somewhat portable defenses against ranged weapons in the future, especially if NPC town walls will bristle with turrets as much as my current outpost does.
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Hatsune_Neko
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Mythbusters did a episode on ancient arrow barrage weapons.
funny thing is it worked!
but used up a lot of arrows and fireworks..
was funny to watch thou
bet it took forever to reload.
funny thing is it worked!
but used up a lot of arrows and fireworks..
was funny to watch thou
bet it took forever to reload.
Do you believe the sexes should be equal?
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
I like the idea of amunition I mean Chris does talk about maybe making crossbows are squads can carry. So we will need ammo for them. Though I would want one thing diffrunt about it. That is been diffrunt types of ammo. Like some that do low penatration but have high range. Then have some that have high penatration but low range. Then maybe some that cause a lot of bleeding and so on. As for the ammo storability the crossbow turrets. Are not old school they look metal with what looks like a gas canaster on the mk11 so a ammo can that holds 50 or so on it would make sence. As for men been pushed to the limit. I have 20 men 9 are my battle class, 7 are my economy class as you put it but they are also trained for low defence as well, and 4 are for base defence with 2 of them been in samari heavy armor and 2 in light armor. I can easly add more work stations becouse of my 7 I float around as needed. I do not always need to make armor or weapons. Once I have enough for the pit to arm the prisoners there will be no need to make more. That will open up 4 of the 7 for other jobs.
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philthymcnasty
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I see it as being do able. You would designate a squad member as a "loader", and their job would be to run from the ammo boxes to the turrets that need it. It would be a great way for rookies to be useful.
This would also add new research options, like improved magazines, different ammo options ect etc.
For those not familiar with turkey hunting, there is a DECAPITATION ARROW.....
Its the most humane way to bow hunt....
here are some sources on the arrows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-kRwUb ... n-graphic)
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=29868 (graphic)
This would also add new research options, like improved magazines, different ammo options ect etc.
For those not familiar with turkey hunting, there is a DECAPITATION ARROW.....
Its the most humane way to bow hunt....
here are some sources on the arrows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-kRwUb ... n-graphic)
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=29868 (graphic)
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lordrahl10
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PnzrNorm I think this is a very interesting idea but I agree it would stretch work force haha
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― Richard Rahl, Faith of the Fallen
― Richard Rahl, Faith of the Fallen
Below is a wall of text about modifications to mounted crossbow ammo, and how the modified system might be implemented for personal crossbows. The main changes are highlighted.
I think that part of the fun in Kenshi is having two options available to you, both with obvious pros and cons, and choosing one in hopes that you picked right. Giving people an option and then making them lock in generally makes them feel better about their choice and be more involved in the gameplay.
That said, I'm all for ammunition for ranged weapons, but I think that requiring it may be a huge pain for players. If it's incorporated I think it should be done a little differently, so I propose these modifications.
First off, every mounted crossbow has an infinite number of wood bolts as their default ammo. No metal tips, just pointy wood. Without tips the bolts do reduced pierce damage, have a reduced bleed modifier, and have a penalty to ranged weapon skill. This allows newer players who are making an outpost to have low grade ranged damage against attackers. They won't have to craft these bolts and they won't have to carry them for the mounted crossbows. The bolt will just auto load and fire as long as a operator is on the weapon, making it work essentially just like the current turret (just with a lot lower damage output and accuracy).
Allow specialized crossbow bolts with multiple quality levels to be made at a crafting structure of some sort. The bolts have weight, are carried in player inventories and then loaded one at a time into the turrets at the same fire rate of the current turrets (this helps mitigate losing a lot of ammo that is already loaded into turrets on loads). The bolts would scale up in damage with quality increases and the current bolt damage could be used as a model for medium-high quality ammo. If the player has a multiple qualities of ammo (Industrial 4 and MK V, for instance) they select which type they want to load. The character will then load and shoot that type of ammo until they run out or are tasked with some other job. These improved bolts will allow players who have the resources and time to increase their ranged effectiveness and make use of their economy.
Then once someone can craft crossbow ammo have 3 types of craftable crossbow bolts; anti-light, anti-armor, and a normal tip. Anti-light tips are wide and act like a combination of moderate cutting and low piercing damage, causing bonus bleeding. While anti-armor are extremely narrow tipped, causing very high pierce damage due to heavier shafts.
The anti-light wide tips do not penetrate armor as well as the narrow anti-armor tips because of their cutting damage, but they cause a lot more bleeding damage. The anti-armor tips can damage any type of character well, but cause very little bleed damage, are much heavier than any other type of ammo, and have a lower range (because the bolts are heavier). The normal tip is just a middle ground that are similar to the current ammo, but with a slightly lower bleed modifier. The normal tips would be available up until higher qualities (for instance anti-light and anti-armor go to edge type 5, but normal tips stop at MK VI quality).
The normal tip would be too useful overall, allowing for too much of a general cover-all weapon. Letting people craft edge type 5 normal tips means that's all they're doing once they can do that. Limiting the quality of the normal tips makes players make decisions and be more active in the gameplay whenever they engage in ranged combat. This makes the player juggle their economy if they choose to produce both specialized types, or take the risk of lowered battle effectiveness if they choose to skimp and only produce one type (like using anti-light ammo against heavily armored attackers).
If personal crossbows are added the same system could more or less apply. However, the low grade wood tipped ammo needs to be craftable, and NOT infinite. Players would have to carry that ammo type just like the specialized bolts for turrets.
The reason for this is that personal ranged weapons would let player armies potentially kite enemies, making them the best weapons in the game. So, make sure the bolts have to be crafted, take up inventory space, and have weight just like with the turret ones.
Ranged units would lose inventory space when carrying ammo, becoming less useful for anyone who wants to loot corpses. You also can't carry too much ammo and still move fast enough to kite enemies if the bolts have weight. The player would be forced to choose how much ammo their men need vs. how fast they need to move.
That would still allow players to make a group completely made up of fast bowmen who can kite enemies, but they'd only get a few shots before running out of ammo and fighting with their secondary weapon. Meanwhile other players could choose to have tanks in heavy armor that taunt while they have a bowman with a ton of anti-armor ammo just nailing enemies.
I think that part of the fun in Kenshi is having two options available to you, both with obvious pros and cons, and choosing one in hopes that you picked right. Giving people an option and then making them lock in generally makes them feel better about their choice and be more involved in the gameplay.
That said, I'm all for ammunition for ranged weapons, but I think that requiring it may be a huge pain for players. If it's incorporated I think it should be done a little differently, so I propose these modifications.
First off, every mounted crossbow has an infinite number of wood bolts as their default ammo. No metal tips, just pointy wood. Without tips the bolts do reduced pierce damage, have a reduced bleed modifier, and have a penalty to ranged weapon skill. This allows newer players who are making an outpost to have low grade ranged damage against attackers. They won't have to craft these bolts and they won't have to carry them for the mounted crossbows. The bolt will just auto load and fire as long as a operator is on the weapon, making it work essentially just like the current turret (just with a lot lower damage output and accuracy).
Allow specialized crossbow bolts with multiple quality levels to be made at a crafting structure of some sort. The bolts have weight, are carried in player inventories and then loaded one at a time into the turrets at the same fire rate of the current turrets (this helps mitigate losing a lot of ammo that is already loaded into turrets on loads). The bolts would scale up in damage with quality increases and the current bolt damage could be used as a model for medium-high quality ammo. If the player has a multiple qualities of ammo (Industrial 4 and MK V, for instance) they select which type they want to load. The character will then load and shoot that type of ammo until they run out or are tasked with some other job. These improved bolts will allow players who have the resources and time to increase their ranged effectiveness and make use of their economy.
Then once someone can craft crossbow ammo have 3 types of craftable crossbow bolts; anti-light, anti-armor, and a normal tip. Anti-light tips are wide and act like a combination of moderate cutting and low piercing damage, causing bonus bleeding. While anti-armor are extremely narrow tipped, causing very high pierce damage due to heavier shafts.
The anti-light wide tips do not penetrate armor as well as the narrow anti-armor tips because of their cutting damage, but they cause a lot more bleeding damage. The anti-armor tips can damage any type of character well, but cause very little bleed damage, are much heavier than any other type of ammo, and have a lower range (because the bolts are heavier). The normal tip is just a middle ground that are similar to the current ammo, but with a slightly lower bleed modifier. The normal tips would be available up until higher qualities (for instance anti-light and anti-armor go to edge type 5, but normal tips stop at MK VI quality).
The normal tip would be too useful overall, allowing for too much of a general cover-all weapon. Letting people craft edge type 5 normal tips means that's all they're doing once they can do that. Limiting the quality of the normal tips makes players make decisions and be more active in the gameplay whenever they engage in ranged combat. This makes the player juggle their economy if they choose to produce both specialized types, or take the risk of lowered battle effectiveness if they choose to skimp and only produce one type (like using anti-light ammo against heavily armored attackers).
If personal crossbows are added the same system could more or less apply. However, the low grade wood tipped ammo needs to be craftable, and NOT infinite. Players would have to carry that ammo type just like the specialized bolts for turrets.
The reason for this is that personal ranged weapons would let player armies potentially kite enemies, making them the best weapons in the game. So, make sure the bolts have to be crafted, take up inventory space, and have weight just like with the turret ones.
Ranged units would lose inventory space when carrying ammo, becoming less useful for anyone who wants to loot corpses. You also can't carry too much ammo and still move fast enough to kite enemies if the bolts have weight. The player would be forced to choose how much ammo their men need vs. how fast they need to move.
That would still allow players to make a group completely made up of fast bowmen who can kite enemies, but they'd only get a few shots before running out of ammo and fighting with their secondary weapon. Meanwhile other players could choose to have tanks in heavy armor that taunt while they have a bowman with a ton of anti-armor ammo just nailing enemies.
Guy wrote:*snip*
Also there can be an adjusted load time between each shot. Sense they are carried and not mounted. The mounted mk2 has a power source that is probaly used in the loading process. Out in the wilderness you will not have that. So a squad of bowmen would have to run from there enemies as they shoot or they would be over ran. I would agree that there would need to be some adjusting to the arrow types. I agree with your idea though the normal once would need to be something a little less stronger then the once we have now with less bleeding. That way the light armor once would be your best bet if you want to bleed them all out. An the heavy amor if used on light to no armor units would go right through them causing little damage there for they barrely bleed you would have to do a vital hit with them to take out a light to no armor unit fast. Though if you use them on a heavy armor unit it will cause them more damage since the arrow will be stuck in there armor and there for continue to do damage.
I'm going to argue that it is incredibly silly to have a wooden bolt item be craftable while having all of the turrets use an invisible, infinite source of these craftable items.Guy wrote:*snip*
I'm leaning more towards realism with this topic, so I would have the turrets also require this ammunition, although it is entirely possible that these turrets can have "magazines" of bolts, which would allow them to hold <insert arbitrary number here> bolts within the turret itself as well as allowing the operator to carry more on their person to refill once the magazine is empty.
Noting what Seimears pointed it, the Mk2 turrets require power, which means they have some mechanisms that automatically reload the next bolt, which may or may not be faster than a non-powered turret with a maximum proficiency gunner.
This doesn't mean that the Mk1 turrets don't utilise mechanisms to assist loading as well.
A simple pulley system with a hand crank would allow a faster reload than the conventional method (which portable crossbow users will have to perform; much, much longer reload time).
Going back to Guy, I believe the turrets should have storage space for bolts to represent the maximum magazine size, simply because I have faith in Chris to find a way to prevent the loss of a loaded bolt through some magical programming method.
It goes without saying that the Turret Gunner job will have another couple of steps appended to it to handle cases when the turret is out of ammo and the user's inventory is also out of ammo, in order to send the user to gather ammo.
There is also a potential for increased efficiency to add the capability to build Storage structures which represent ammo boxes.
Not to mention, this would also give Siege AI in the future another objective in your outpost to raid.
I do agree in regards to having varieties of ammunition.
It would add another layer of strategy to have multiple Classes of bolts as well as the Grades system similar to the current melee weapons Grades system.
Handheld crossbows, as I mentioned earlier, will have a significantly longer reload time, as per the realism factor of it, but I want to mention a few additional things that make them stand out from other ranged weapons.
- A handheld crossbow, like the turret, should also have "storage for ammunition". I put this in quotes because it is only capable of holding 1 bolt at a time, unless we mod Van Helsing's repeater crossbow into Kenshi, but that's a whole other thing.
A handheld crossbow is one of the few ranged weapons of history that can be "fired from the hip" (a.k.a. Is capable of firing from one hand, given it is small enough, while the user is on the move), as opposed to bows, slings, or javelins, which all require either the use of two hands, a strong focus on the target for decent accuracy, or momentum from the user to move the projectile in the direction of the target.
A handheld crossbow requires the user to come to a complete halt in order to begin, and finish, reloading the weapon.- An exception would be a crossbow small enough such that it does not require a multiple of your body weight in Newtons in order to draw the string to the locked position, but crossbows this tiny would apply barely enough force to penetrate leather.
For that reason, I believe that Kenshi should stick to larger, more applicable crossbows.
- An exception would be a crossbow small enough such that it does not require a multiple of your body weight in Newtons in order to draw the string to the locked position, but crossbows this tiny would apply barely enough force to penetrate leather.
Times like those when you have to rebalance the loadout of your squad in order to continue moving make Kenshi even more fun for me.
Honestly, that's probably a better idea because I'm casting suggestions based off of early implementation of features. I generally stick to a balance and risk/reward focus when suggesting things and can get rather tunnel visioned at times. As such I never seriously considered changing certain features of the current turrets (like their infinite ammo/magazine capacity or reloading). Looking back, I see I ended up using existing features such as the inventory weight system to limit potential problems like personal crossbow kiting, or keeping the current fire/"reload" system for turrets when new features could be more effective.PnzrNorm wrote: I'm leaning more towards realism with this topic, so I would have the turrets also require this ammunition...
It would make more sense in the Kenshi universe to have craftable ammo at every level. It'd be pretty easy to allow for the crafting of that ammo too. After all, if someone can make turrets and the walls to put those turrets on then they probably have both the time and the resources to craft pointed sticks for ammo. And since you'd have a ton of ammo, it'd make sense to have an ammo box that allowed for storage.
I also think it would make sense to require characters to be stationary while reloading a hand crossbow because it accurately reflects reloading in real life and introduces a way to stop kiting.
As long as Chris can get magazines to not despawn when loaded I'm fine with magazines for turrets. I think personal crossbows could carry individual bolts and have them loaded one at a time. The bolts would just stack in a quiver or something in the character's inventory up to whatever arbitrary amount. For reference, I had this system in mind before in my previous post, but just assumed it would be understood. I do not want to have to place like 15 individual bolts in a character's inventory in separate tiles with no option to stack them on top of one another.
Would probally be something you could put in a traders pack. There for stacked. Can even make it were it is like med packs. With so many charges with each type of ammo. The ammo can idea can either be like a belt fed machine gun. Were as the ammo can sits on the side of the crossbow and gravity feads it. Though I would rather see a system were they are more stored at the spot in a can on the side of the crossbow. The crafter just brings them to that can as he makes them. Simuler to a storage box but instead of it been in a building it could be built next to the crossbow.
For realism sake yes unless the cross bow is a one hand small, is only good for taken out rabbits. You would have to stand still to load. They had 2 kinds in the old days. Though today they have a place for you to put ur foot as you pull back on the cord. But back then they had a crank that you would put on and take off of the crossbow not something easily done on the run. Then before that they had the put feet on bow and pull back with hands method. All three forms would be hard to do while on the run.
For realism sake yes unless the cross bow is a one hand small, is only good for taken out rabbits. You would have to stand still to load. They had 2 kinds in the old days. Though today they have a place for you to put ur foot as you pull back on the cord. But back then they had a crank that you would put on and take off of the crossbow not something easily done on the run. Then before that they had the put feet on bow and pull back with hands method. All three forms would be hard to do while on the run.
Whenever the GUI re-skin occurs, I'm willing to bet there will be additional slots added to the char's inventory to allow equipping a larger selection of items than the current system, or quivers would just occupy the Backpack slot and have their own storage space, which would be the size of one bolt while allowing them to stack up to a certain number.
I believe the Traders Backpack should also be able to hold stacks of bolts, but for the sake of balancing and realism, the Traders Backpack would not have as many bolts in a single stack as the quiver.
Also, a crossbow user would not autonomously load bolts from a Backpack into the crossbow in the same way they would from a quiver.
The ammo cans/boxes for ammo would likely act similar to the current Storage boxes, so they would also have the same functionality, and issues, as the current Storage system.
Essentially, a crafter would craft bolts, and s/he will only deposit them in the closest ammo can/box.
Since we would want to have multiple ammo cans/boxes, I believe it would be really nifty if any chars that are depositing ammo in these ammo cans/boxes would do it using a round robin system.
Although, I don't agree that they should be gravity fed to become a ramshackle repeater crossbow, but that gives me the idea that there could be very advanced tech, comparable to Edge Type 5 weaponry, that would allow the construction of a repeater crossbow turret (not literally a repeater crossbow turret, but a turret that has half the reload time; it could just look like a repeater crossbow).
Already speculating that this would be far too powerful to include in Kenshi without portable defenses against ranged weaponry available to NPCs..
I believe the Traders Backpack should also be able to hold stacks of bolts, but for the sake of balancing and realism, the Traders Backpack would not have as many bolts in a single stack as the quiver.
Also, a crossbow user would not autonomously load bolts from a Backpack into the crossbow in the same way they would from a quiver.
The ammo cans/boxes for ammo would likely act similar to the current Storage boxes, so they would also have the same functionality, and issues, as the current Storage system.
Essentially, a crafter would craft bolts, and s/he will only deposit them in the closest ammo can/box.
Since we would want to have multiple ammo cans/boxes, I believe it would be really nifty if any chars that are depositing ammo in these ammo cans/boxes would do it using a round robin system.
- A Round Robin system would use an LRU (Least Recently Used) algorithm to determine which ammo can/box was touched the least recently, and the crafter/hauler will deposit bolts into the LRU ammo can/box
Although, I don't agree that they should be gravity fed to become a ramshackle repeater crossbow, but that gives me the idea that there could be very advanced tech, comparable to Edge Type 5 weaponry, that would allow the construction of a repeater crossbow turret (not literally a repeater crossbow turret, but a turret that has half the reload time; it could just look like a repeater crossbow).
Already speculating that this would be far too powerful to include in Kenshi without portable defenses against ranged weaponry available to NPCs..
Throwing more out the front end will make the user gain experience that much faster, since each bolt gives a flat amount of exp.
Whenever the user gets more experienced, they become more accurate.
Therefore throwing more out the front end makes the weapon directly deadlier.
Whenever the user gets more experienced, they become more accurate.
Therefore throwing more out the front end makes the weapon directly deadlier.
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