Physical Inventory

[LootedWhileAwake]

I have played many games that have not expanded from the invisible inventory system which makes a lot of the items that you have look as though they are not there. With things like sheathes, pack animals, wagons, customizable straps, belts, and backpacks,a water canteen(or something like that), storage, and pockets. All the items put inside these things should be able to be seen in the right circumstances.

I suggest a time after looting something or someone for your character to process what you told them to get from it such as unsheathing a sword from whoever they are looting and putting it in their own sheath or saving it for last because they don't have one, and then they carry the sword by hand. Armor would also have to be carried by hand or put on and worn, and depending on the size and how adjustable the pieces are(cloth shirt vs. metal armor), it could fit into a backpack. But there would be a time amount according to how many items your placing and how skilled your character is at placing each of the items. This time would be a vulnerability just like a medic has when healing someone but you can cancel placing items and tell your character to get their weapon out or go straight for a packed weapon. Your inventory would be a combination of all the slots your character could have on person. A sword cannot really physically fit into a backpack, you would need a space specialized for it. With backpacks the items at the top are the ones near the top of the backpack, your character will be spending more time taking things out from the top to change the location of something on the bottom, then put everything back in which would naturally fall to the lowest location depending on other items and whether or not they are breakable, bringing on another concept-->

I suggest the ability to break stuff either with a weapon or with gravity. When someone strikes an item such as a water canteen you are wearing which could impact the person, there would be a damage reduction for the canteen being in the way but it may also destroy part of your canteen and cause water to leak out of it. If a big animal were to charge into you and your character falls back, any items in your pockets may or may not fall out depending on how your falling and if any other objects in the pocket keep it from falling out as easily. If you stacked five iron bars onto a glass bottle of (whatever) it may break, especially from an outside force adding to weight. If you were to tell your character to throw out an item(they could set it down or throw it randomly on the ground) the item could break if they threw it depending on how fragile it was and the surface it fell on.

I suggest that big objects that cannot fit into inventory be carried with hands and maybe with thighs too or be transported by pack animals with certain straps, or by wagons (or something like that). If a character were to pick up a Barrel of water for a certain amount of time(obviously dependent on strength) and they tried to carry it up a hill and it got too steep to carry it, it would fall on them due to weight turning into a sideways force, toppling the character <-- or they could get it to their side so it rolls down the hill without hurting them. Other factors and features such as sand moving because it easily changes by force can cause loss of balance or someone to slip. If a cart pulled by a animal were to go up a slope the weight of what's being pulled plus the animal is going to start adding up the steeper it is and cause the animal to be slower and eventually give up, dragging the animal back with the cart of supplies (<-- possible injury, maybe). Carts may also get damaged like rolling one off a cliff.

I suggest more friction to the ground so people and items don't slide down a low slope without consideration for weight and whether or not something has a roundness like wheels or part of barrels.

I suggest animations for handling all the different kinds of items in picking them up putting them in, filling canteens, sheathing, and moving things around except unless there are two different filled barrels you would carry them the same, but depending on what fills it, one may be easier to carry because of weight.

For traders, your character can be seen taking things out of the separate inventories on the person putting them on the counter (and putting the things that were in the way back in) and the trader can be putting your things inside their storage (<--which realistically fits in there) and taking out the things you bought, putting them on the counter for your character to put in where you wanted it. The traders should be buying your items to sell them to other customers and be able to make a profit. There should be an economy based on imports and exports transported from actual places getting the materials and resources such as a mine or a weapon smith.

I also suggest that the hand slots be able to hold things like how a person carries a long pole with both hands or holds a pile of coins better with two hands with the opportunity to drop some, and having to carry iron bars in a stack maybe two to four at a time with their hands and other items within reasonable means able to be seen on person.

[Abek]

Wow. That's a lot of new ideas.

I like the idea of items being visible on your person. For example, I keep a Plank and a Fragment Axe in my backpack. Those items can in no way fit in that backpack. There are examples of other games (The Bards Tale) where almost all items end up being visible on the character. This makes you look hilariously burdened later on in the game, completely covered in sharp pointy items. So I think items that are obviously too large for the pack could have attachments to the sides of the bag. Of course, we would just add 2 visible slots on each side of the bag because I don't want to have every weapon in my bag visible in those slots. Maybe those slots would have a faster switch time for weapons. I also think it would be a massive pain in the butt to have items fall to the bottom of your backpack. I can understand the desire for realism, but we might as well make items lower in your backpack invisible because you can't see them under the stuff on top of it. You might as well remove inventory and have the cargo pants grant inventory slots. There's a certain amount of realism you have to forgo in a game because they're tedious.

However, others have also suggested switching times for armors and weapons. That could definitely be a thing. Slapping on armor instantaneously doesn't happen. I can put on body armor and a helmet in about 5 seconds. Changing weapons would take about 3 seconds. Thats when I'm not in combat. It doesn't make sense to be able to change armor in combat. That should not be a thing. I don't think you should be able to change armor when you're attacked at all. Besides maybe removing a helmet maybe. And changing weapons in combat should incur a penalty where you get hit.

A delay in the time it takes to move goods has already been discussed. It was thought that this would make transferring large quantities of trade goods and other items too tiring.

I like this friction idea. Heavy, totally equipped characters don't slide too far. Because they wouldn't. I think that wouldn't be too hard to put in.

Bump to the economy too. There should definitely be a more bustling economy. Also maybe a wandering trader AI ob for your own characters.

You're suggesting a new system for transferring items that I don't see being put in. Too much hassle, not enough real gameplay difference.

Overall, cool suggestions.

[LootedWhileAwake]

I can understand the desire for realism, but we might as well make items lower in your backpack invisible because you can't see them under the stuff on top of it. You might as well remove inventory and have the cargo pants grant inventory slots. There's a certain amount of realism you have to forgo in a game because they're tedious.

The slot system still exists, you can see the items because its the easiest way to search through what you have, it has all the kinds of slots perhaps pages of them for the different places you can use as inventory. I happen to believe they are not a tedious implementation, it simply organizes things so that you can familiarize where your things are and where you can put them.

I like the idea of items being visible on your person. For example, I keep a Plank and a Fragment Axe in my backpack. Those items can in no way fit in that backpack. There are examples of other games (The Bards Tale) where almost all items end up being visible on the character. This makes you look hilariously burdened later on in the game, completely covered in sharp pointy items. So I think items that are obviously too large for the pack could have attachments to the sides of the bag. Of course, we would just add 2 visible slots on each side of the bag because I don't want to have every weapon in my bag visible in those slots.

You don't have to have everything on a character, there can be weapon racks and rolls (like torture tool rolls) that you can transport with carts, pack animals, and the like. You could carry a roll of weapons with both arms and drop it when in battle. Who carry's five swords all the time? It encourages not being alone, and to use equipment for transporting things.Its hard enough to carry a two hand sword all the time, carry a bunch of weapons just isn't a thing unless your a trader, and even they use pack animals.

I can put on body armor and a helmet in about 5 seconds. Changing weapons would take about 3 seconds. Thats when I'm not in combat. It doesn't make sense to be able to change armor in combat. That should not be a thing. I don't think you should be able to change armor when you're attacked at all. Besides maybe removing a helmet maybe. And changing weapons in combat should incur a penalty where you get hit.

Body armor should have some straps to be tightened so it would take like 10 seconds to put it around or put it overhead your character and then make sure its tightened + pants. Your right changing armor in combat shouldn't be a thing and if you do you would be hit, but changing weapons such as picking up a different one that is on the ground or sheathed near a person near you, shouldn't cause a penalty if your character is skilled to do it fast enough and it should include the dependencies of its weight.

A delay in the time it takes to move goods has already been discussed. It was thought that this would make transferring large quantities of trade goods and other items too tiring.

A delay in the time it takes to move goods? like to move them out of a backpack or to move them physically? Setting up items onto people, pack animals, or carts could be automated by having people ready to take out or put on things from a set storage unit or told to help take off stuff for the shopkeeper to speed it up. Of course moving a bunch of heavy goods is tiring, the whole ambush a caravan point is that they are a little slow and vulnerable. This makes having guards, mercs, or companions, a valuable asset in the trading world. You have to make sure your goods arrive well with proper precautions. This doesn't have to be a Player alone profit, Its a competition between player and ai to make sure they don't get killed. Maybe you get some of the scrap from those big trade ambushes. If you have enough transportation you should be able to move a lot quicker than on one animal, or you could hire people just for carrying all those trade goods. There also seems to be some great beasts that are going to be available for riding, why not use those as part trade vehicle.

You're suggesting a new system for transferring items that I don't see being put in. Too much hassle, not enough real gameplay difference.

The whole point why it was suggested is that it goes along with things that do make a game play difference, it's a piece to connect with that makes things worth defending, space worth having, and supply stocks worth making.

[Abek]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your inventory post, but I was talking about your point that in order to get items from "bottom" slots of your backpack, there would be a time delay as you moved objects from the top out of the way. Then, other objects would shift in the bag causing items that are destructible to be crushed. It's almost as if you'd like players in Kenshi to experience the pain of having a water bottle break in their bag. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I carry every available weapon in the game in my backpack. I totally thought about the idea of having weapon rolls too! I would love to see that! Maybe another backpack dedicated to weapons only. I would love to see all my weapons strapped in and jutting out of the sides of one of those bags. I agree with all the points on encumbrance you made, but I just think that players shouldn't be encouraged to play a certain way. It's like the silly feature that lets you put bags inside of bags. People ask to remove that one all the time. I think that if you don't like it, don't use it. But don't restrict other people from doing that if they want.

Body armor could maybe have a variable time to equip based on dexterity (3-10seconds). But Oh Jesus, pants. I've never worn leg armor, but pants take a good 1-3 minutes to change when you're wearing high laced boots with the pants tucked in. Maybe the speed of changing pants would be limited by boots. Definitely changing pants in combat should get you killed. Sure, that makes sense in terms of grabbing a sheathed blade. If you were fast enough, changing weapons shouldn't be too much of a risk.

Yeah, there was going to be a brief delay in moving any item in and out of a person's inventory. Weapons, goods, armor, etc., off bodies, into storage, and so on.

I think what I'm thinking is that the overall risk in Kenshi is very instantaneous. You go through very long periods where nothing happens with brief flashes of excitement. Making a loading equipment delay on a caravan a point of actual vulnerability requires better AI on the point of the bandits. They would need to watch the caravan and strike when it was most vulnerable. They would also need a better looting AI which would have them raid the unsecured supplies and try to escape instead of just killing everyone. Since loading/unloading occurs in towns, you're already under protection by guards.

These are good points. You just made me care more about my settlements and bases. I just realized how badly I want a proper bandit AI. Enemies that will steal my stuff and loot my containers. That would be awesome.

[LootedWhileAwake]

but I was talking about your point that in order to get items from "bottom" slots of your backpack, there would be a time delay as you moved objects from the top out of the way. Then, other objects would shift in the bag causing items that are destructible to be crushed. It's almost as if you'd like players in Kenshi to experience the pain of having a water bottle break in their bag. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Well I get your point on breakable items in a bag, but its like having to reorganize your inventory so every thing fits (which is already in the game). The point is that there should be gravity in the inventory which can be affected by outside forces like cutting through a bag, causes items that can fit through that cut to fall out. Assuming gravity is at work there, might as well apply it with items being movable objects while in inventory spaces. As for the squashed water bottle, I can see how it makes little difference....but I don't see a cooked beak thing meat stick being with iron ore, and building materials stacked upon it without problems.

[Abek]

Well I get your point on breakable items in a bag, but its like having to reorganize your inventory so every thing fits (which is already in the game). The point is that there should be gravity in the inventory which can be affected by outside forces like cutting through a bag, causes items that can fit through that cut to fall out. Assuming gravity is at work there, might as well apply it with items being movable objects while in inventory spaces. As for the squashed water bottle, I can see how it makes little difference....but I don't see a cooked beak thing meat stick being with iron ore, and building materials stacked upon it without problems.

Agreed (I play backpack tetris like a pro). But having slashable backpacks with items that fall out would also mean implementing a durability mechanic into the game since a torn backpack wouldn't be useful anymore until you patched it up. I'm thinking this would work like having a tear have a size in blocks wide. Then all items large enough to fall through that hole would drop through to the ground. Large items wouldn't fall through, but depending on their weight, might make the tear bigger. I'd then want things like a chainmail and plate covered backpack. It just doesn't sound fun. Like you put food in your bag and when you want to eat some beak thing hot wings they're squished because you put your helmet on them. That would actually be hilarious. You'd have grades to your beak thing meat. High Quality beak thing meat becomes Low Quality beak thing meat when squashed.

[LootedWhileAwake]

But having slashable backpacks with items that fall out would also mean implementing a durability mechanic into the game since a torn backpack wouldn't be useful anymore until you patched it up.

It would still be useful, just to a certain degree, it doesn't always get hit at the bottom. Hitting a backpack isn't always going to happen, you have to be at the right place at the right time. Like when someone comes up from behind, or they slash from the side and some of that force hits the pack. Depending on whats in it, (iron bars for example) It may protect your character from a great part of that damage depending on its location in the pack.

I'm thinking this would work like having a tear have a size in blocks wide. Then all items large enough to fall through that hole would drop through to the ground. Large items wouldn't fall through, but depending on their weight, might make the tear bigger.

That sounds reasonable.

I'd then want things like a chainmail and plate covered backpack.

Sure, why not?

It just doesn't sound fun. Like you put food in your bag and when you want to eat some beak thing hot wings they're squished because you put your helmet on them. That would actually be hilarious. You'd have grades to your beak thing meat. High Quality beak thing meat becomes Low Quality beak thing meat when squashed.

Of course it sounds fun . Food could have a quality like fresh, good, nice, edible, bad, and rotting in a time frame but have another factor like whole, squished, flattened which would cause it to take up less space/slots in inventory while its freshness goes down when it reaches squished and flattened, causing less satisfaction to hunger and the more weight is above its capacity to keep undamaged the faster the transfer from whole to squished or squished to flattened. The quality will also last less since it brings it down to nice quality. The value shouldn't be as low as putting a helmet on food, unless its easily deformable. Which may encourage the use of less deformable food for example a banana compared to a slab of meat. One is immediately edible, the other has to be cooked, deformable foods would be ready on the go.

[Abek]

You know, I did think of that too. A backpack could definitely be struck somewhere other than the bottom, but how would we show that on the inventory GUI? A red line across a certain section of the backpack? Nothing could be placed above that line? Right now, there's calculations for the probability of a limb getting struck, but the backpack would then need it's own hitboxes with calculations for each section of the backpack. But yeah, they backpack shouldn't even be hit except by turrets and backstabbing.

I think you have a point. I guess I'm stuck with the traditional RPG inventory mindset. A lot of aspects of Kenshi are already revolutionary. A new inventory system would be incredible. You'd start wearing pants based on how many pockets it had. Oh that would be awesome. Hitting inventory would open a bunch of windows based on your current gear, not a generic box. For example, cargo pants would have 6 pockets: 3 (2x3) and 3 (3x2). Trader's Leather's would have a lot of little pockets. And Hungry Bandits couldn't store anything because they don't have any pockets! Not even for squashed bread. No wonder they're so hungry.

I agree with you now on the ability to hold items in your hands. That way even without pockets you could carry things. For example, when hauling water from wells to your storage, you'd have a water barrel in your hands. It really doesn't make sense to be able to put an entire barrel in your "Personal on your body storage" There would be no maximum size for objects held in your hands. It would just be a factor of your strength. So stronger characters could haul water two barrels at a time, one under/on each arm.

This would all be amazing. Totally amazing.

[LootedWhileAwake]

You know, I did think of that too. A backpack could definitely be struck somewhere other than the bottom, but how would we show that on the inventory GUI? A red line across a certain section of the backpack? Nothing could be placed above that line?

I think if there's a outlining of the backpack around the slots for it, you can see if part of that picture shows the cut and the size of it, you could tell whatever you put in it would slide down through the slots out of the pack and if you did, it would. Yes there could be a red line to divide the slots to show which are at risk if something is put there. Especially since we only get a 2d image of the inventory slots, a red line around the hole or cut can show up in the middle for example.

But yeah, they backpack shouldn't even be hit except by turrets and backstabbing.

Backpacks still get hit in a real fight, especially if your surrounded and your taking all the hits.

There would be no maximum size for objects held in your hands. It would just be a factor of your strength. So stronger characters could haul water two barrels at a time, one under/on each arm.

Right, that would require a lot of strength though. There could even be certain elements such as adding the forces of characters to accomplish a task they can't do alone.

[LootedWhileAwake]

I think what I'm thinking is that the overall risk in Kenshi is very instantaneous. You go through very long periods where nothing happens with brief flashes of excitement.

I guess seeing some good diversified animations for carrying, working, eating/drinking, fighting, movement, AI interaction... (and appealing purposeful sounds) along with more types of appearances, clothing, items, and colors beside the beauty of the scenery, would fill that gap between goal and fulfillment.

[Hatsune_Neko]

to make it easier im just simplify this instead of quoting everything.

1. adding time to everything been suggested before. good idea. especially if changing Armour. shouldn't be able to just put it on in a second. not sure if this will be changed in the future but it should be.

2. character slots. interesting and other games have done this. but like clothing sport. Kenshi already has this but simplified. i once suggested a version based of Second life for clothing so you can mix and match different layers.

3 Backpack space. granted swords usually don't fit into backpacks, current backpack only represents it being inside. some things im sure are not done because one, they didn't think of it back then. or it adds to teh cost to render a new item.

4. breaking stuff. this idea is nearly exactly like another one. nearly same idea.
5. Big items not fitting in backpack. this could cause issues for rendering if you have to add it physically to your characters. more to render. Character and NPC models recently went under a rendering reduction to help improve game performance and future rendering of armies sized groups. able to render more people with a lower rendering cost per NPC and player characters. sorry but that is also aimed at adding items to your body.

6.ground friction. yep that's needed. and is being adjusted. that will take time to get it right as ragdoll physics are still wonky in nearly every game.

7.Animations for little items. nice but expensive. unless someone does them for free or they find a source for them, i doubt it will get added. though teh Devs are working on new mocap animations. more fighting stances/styles and the like.

8. storage and reality. sorry nice idea but i don't want that much realism personally. not interested in watching the trader fight with his version of tetris. and i still want my character to have unrealistic ability to carry impossible loads. other wise trading would become tedious since you could only carry so much. a Modern solider carries about 150 to 200 pounds of gear. 200 being nearly impossible though. Kenshi has heavy clubs that easily surpass this. this doesnt even include amount inside the backpack total weight.

[LootedWhileAwake]

2. character slots. interesting and other games have done this. but like clothing sport. Kenshi already has this but simplified. i once suggested a version based of Second life for clothing so you can mix and match different layers.

I understand it's simplified, but it's as though all items have disappeared and affect nothing but weight which spurred on the idea of objects having a physical presence. For ex. if it didn't, 5 cats were stolen from you from your right pocket each time someone pick-pocketed your character. If it did, you'd see inventories with multiple ? options, choosing one... "nothing was found in that pocket", choose another... you managed to take a banana from the backpack (It was at the top inside the pack).

4. breaking stuff. this idea is nearly exactly like another one. nearly same idea.

If you can, please provide a link to it.

5. Big items not fitting in backpack. this could cause issues for rendering if you have to add it physically to your characters. more to render. Character and NPC models recently went under a rendering reduction to help improve game performance and future rendering of armies sized groups. able to render more people with a lower rendering cost per NPC and player characters. sorry but that is also aimed at adding items to your body.

I suppose that means that it takes its place? Everything seems to be limited by rendering.... I guess games got by it with loading screens. Minecraft even seems very limited. But I don't think that dismisses an idea.

7.Animations for little items. nice but expensive. unless someone does them for free or they find a source for them, i doubt it will get added. though teh Devs are working on new mocap animations. more fighting stances/styles and the like.

Well, I really like that they are headed for the option of choice when it comes to fighting, but I am also really looking for how they are going to show the living aspect which determines their conflicts.

8. storage and reality. sorry nice idea but i don't want that much realism personally. not interested in watching the trader fight with his version of tetris. and i still want my character to have unrealistic ability to carry impossible loads. other wise trading would become tedious since you could only carry so much. a Modern solider carries about 150 to 200 pounds of gear. 200 being nearly impossible though. Kenshi has heavy clubs that easily surpass this. this doesnt even include amount inside the backpack total weight.

Hmm..your justifying carrying everything in a single inventory without any problems. But if your idea of being superhuman all the time would work... the player wouldn't need any sort of transportation or helping hands, but unsure how you feel about the AI using it. Trading becomes tedious with more people, when you don't have an automated system, which I think could be implemented somehow.

[Hatsune_Neko]

yep
pretty much sums it up.
was my opinion on your ideas.

as for the link part. cant remember where i read it, was here or on steam forums. forget which just soundly nearly the exact same to me from another post. and you can always use the search option to find it yourself.

[Chinsei]

Technically there is a minor "automated" system when it comes to organizing inventory. Personally i like the way the inventory system is. i just wish we could rotate items to help organize it more.

[LootedWhileAwake]

Technically there is a minor "automated" system when it comes to organizing inventory. Personally i like the way the inventory system is. i just wish we could rotate items to help organize it more.

The statement was really about the idea of real inventory space being realistic carrying capacity. What I meant by an automated system is to use trade group interface when you want it, for ex. a slave master with guards who has slaves carrying loot he wants to sell, and then has some carry what he buys. When the slave master wants to trade, any inventory designated as a sell and or buy inventory(names of it could be changed) will just combine into box of multiples showing the inventories or designated items(which could be colored or be differentiated) you have set for selling, and what you buy is taken by each member with the buy inventory. You could see the amount of space the shopkeeper has if it had a limit, and how much your characters can carry when you buy...and then you can just see it all unfold with action. This idea could be adapted if you wanted to actually set where everything is, in that case... You can go to each one manually and set all items to the side(feature) and set them in where ever you want And or be able to sector off locations which also leads to the idea of separate realistic inventory spaces.

Now about rotating items, Definitely.