This is my first attempt at constructive criticism.
As this game has gone through development, new features have been added constantly. As expected, each new feature often breaks other aspects of the game that generally eventually gets corrected with each new update.
However, I've noticed a steady decline in the behavior of all AI squads with no recovery of their previous splendour. Somewhere along the line, multiple changes to behavior/mechanics have turned the bandits from a real threat, something to be feared, to a minor nuisance. This seems to have gotten worse through sequential updates.
In the past, bandits would automatically target enemies as soon as they came within range. They would then arrowhead towards you and encircle you. Every bandit moved gracefully as a single hivemind. Mass combat was beautiful and elegant as multiple units sidestepped and attacked with fantastic timing. It looked choreographed, it was so good.
They could also break down doors. I remember multiple instances where bandits would bust down my gates and doors, beating up entire towns and leaving them for dead.
Today, enemies will often straight up ignore you. You can run in front of them and through them and they often don't care. Sometimes, in the middle of combat, some enemies will walk away. In some cases an engaged enemy will just decide to resume "following leader". He'll put his weapon down and I'll decapitate him with a sense of loss.
Sometimes, I attribute this to a new mechanic. Maybe, the bandits no longer attack and disengage because my character is so strong? If so, then why do Hungry Bandits engage Leviathans?
Why do they just stop in front of gates? Why has mass combat become such a clusterfrock? The choreography is gone. Many times they'll just stand there, confused. It's like they forgot how to do combat.
I could go on. I just want to emphasize that when the real threats in Kenshi are removed, the world loses is glimmer. The world is less active, and more reactive. Instead of coming to you and trying to crush you, it just sits. Waits. Responds to you. It didn't use to be that way.
I think there could be ways this could be fixed. I just want to be reassured that these changes have been noted and its on the list of things to be fixed.
Thanks,
Abe
Criticize Us Here
Yes, there was adjustement. Chris wants the bandits to be more like "people" rather than mindless zombies who attack everyone and everything. It is indeed a feature, rather than something breaking in that sense, but yes, at the same time, the AI does currently seem to be a little broken.. You mentioned standing around, and I've noticed this too - in the middle of a fight. They will be attacking one moment, then just stop their attacks and stand around doing nothing.. that is a bug ;p. But the general "attack all on sight!" not being present is certainly not. It's intended.Abek wrote: However, I've noticed a steady decline in the behavior of all AI squads with no recovery of their previous splendour. Somewhere along the line, multiple changes to behavior/mechanics have turned the bandits from a real threat, something to be feared, to a minor nuisance. This seems to have gotten worse through sequential updates.
OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3570K CPU @ 3.40GHz (4 CPUs), ~3.4GHz
Memory: 16Gb
AMD Radeon R9 390 Series
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3570K CPU @ 3.40GHz (4 CPUs), ~3.4GHz
Memory: 16Gb
AMD Radeon R9 390 Series
I can only think of a few things to rant about.
The Camera, not the controls, but the camera itself. I've never liked it and I have fought the camera for years to show me what it is I want to look at. It's like the camera is on an adjustable boom, attached to a swivel, attached to your character's head. And you move the camera itself around that pivot point and use the keyboard to reposition the pivot point. It would be so much nicer if the camera was on the swivel and the keboard moved the camera directly. Totally a personal preference but there you go.
Second, The Map. Sure the game has RTS elements in it except the most basic one, a map i can click on to send units far away from my current focus. In reality I would gather my officers and point at an actual map with my finger and say, "go there. And let me know when you get there so I can tell you what comes next because you are lazy and incompetent." I wish to do this in Kenshi very much but the map is weak and useless. I don't feel very strategic if I can't order groups of units to various parts of the map with no supervision.
Third, The Thievery. It should not be so easy to accidentally try and steal something simply by directing a unit into a building so you can see the shop keeper so you can sell your junk. This happens to me every now and then. Perhaps you could make each building a clickable thing so you click and the selected unit automatically goes inside. Or maybe a forced move (keypress + mouse button) that ignores interactive items and only moves.
And...Sneaking.
It is entirely impossible to tell whether you are successfully sneaking or too far from someones field of view to be seen anyways. This makes it hard to sneak and hard to train. Sneak mode should show every npc's cone of view so you have an idea of when you are capable of being seen. Divinity: Original Sin did a good job with this when you sneak in that game and it is really all the information you need to be stealthy. I like the concept of the arrows but they only show who can see me in an abstract way that doesn't tell me enough about how far they can see or what they are looking at. This needs to be addressed before we can do stealth raids using multiple characters. There needs to be a good way for the NPCs to be sneaky too, they need to know when to stop and backtrack or just hold still or hug a wall.
The Last Big One, but not the least, Clicking on enemies in general. Aside from the times that the AI decides people should just stand still and drool on the ground, no one is ever holding still. It is hard to single people out in a crowd. It is extremely difficult and irritating to click on someone far away even when it is paused. One in ten times I attack and just move my people into the general vacinity of the victims. Nine times out of ten I am clicking an npc/enemy to see their character sheet to check their stats or title or faction affiliation. Are they dead or alive? I don't know. I can't seem to click on the bastard. Is that a dust bandit fighting some hungry bandits or sand ninjas fighting a wanderer? I can't tell. I can't seem to click on the other guy for shit. Let's get a mouse hover tooltip that tells us what the hell we are looking at and whose it is and what it is doing and what state it is in. BUT! But make me have to use binoculars or a spy glass so it isn't all the time which would likely be irritating in the other direction. Currently, I can have all the info I need if I just click on the thing I'm looking at. Except a lot of time I can't when I pause it I can't while it's moving either. The cursor just never finds the right pixel or something. Make this better because it is used constantly. It is part of the meat and potatoes of the game.
I like the new UI but I wish the squad member portraits were drag and drop so that I could rearrange them. Sometimes you just want certain people to be your 1-4 folks.
Squad AIs would be really well served by being able to tie people (figuratively, but graphicall too) together from one to the other to denote heirarchies and relationships. It should just be easier to give orders to groups through the UI that the AI can handle on it's own. If it isn't going to be set in stone then I should be able to organize and group units together that have things in common and in synergistic ways like guards for the farmers or scientists and guards for the gate or, healer for these people but not these. Or repairman for this town but not a builder. We need to be able to setup a sustainable, functional group that can be left alone and we need more tools than lassos and button clicks to do it. Commanding all your units as a herd still sucks even though you can now separate the weaklings from the fighters. Better than it was, though.
I find Kenshi to be really personal and engaging when it's just my starting character struggling to survive his first massive head trauma to turn into the toughest SOB I know he can be. It all makes sense at that scale and works well with the interface that exists. And it all sort of breaks down in usability as you add more people to your faction. Especially when your people are in a few different places. You can have that same personal and engaging experience with any of your people controlling them singularly but you just know that your other people are getting screwed while you aren't around.
I'm hopeful these are all just placeholders for systems that haven't been polished on.
P.S. - keep up the good work. I can't wait till there is blood. =)
The Camera, not the controls, but the camera itself. I've never liked it and I have fought the camera for years to show me what it is I want to look at. It's like the camera is on an adjustable boom, attached to a swivel, attached to your character's head. And you move the camera itself around that pivot point and use the keyboard to reposition the pivot point. It would be so much nicer if the camera was on the swivel and the keboard moved the camera directly. Totally a personal preference but there you go.
Second, The Map. Sure the game has RTS elements in it except the most basic one, a map i can click on to send units far away from my current focus. In reality I would gather my officers and point at an actual map with my finger and say, "go there. And let me know when you get there so I can tell you what comes next because you are lazy and incompetent." I wish to do this in Kenshi very much but the map is weak and useless. I don't feel very strategic if I can't order groups of units to various parts of the map with no supervision.
Third, The Thievery. It should not be so easy to accidentally try and steal something simply by directing a unit into a building so you can see the shop keeper so you can sell your junk. This happens to me every now and then. Perhaps you could make each building a clickable thing so you click and the selected unit automatically goes inside. Or maybe a forced move (keypress + mouse button) that ignores interactive items and only moves.
And...Sneaking.
It is entirely impossible to tell whether you are successfully sneaking or too far from someones field of view to be seen anyways. This makes it hard to sneak and hard to train. Sneak mode should show every npc's cone of view so you have an idea of when you are capable of being seen. Divinity: Original Sin did a good job with this when you sneak in that game and it is really all the information you need to be stealthy. I like the concept of the arrows but they only show who can see me in an abstract way that doesn't tell me enough about how far they can see or what they are looking at. This needs to be addressed before we can do stealth raids using multiple characters. There needs to be a good way for the NPCs to be sneaky too, they need to know when to stop and backtrack or just hold still or hug a wall.
The Last Big One, but not the least, Clicking on enemies in general. Aside from the times that the AI decides people should just stand still and drool on the ground, no one is ever holding still. It is hard to single people out in a crowd. It is extremely difficult and irritating to click on someone far away even when it is paused. One in ten times I attack and just move my people into the general vacinity of the victims. Nine times out of ten I am clicking an npc/enemy to see their character sheet to check their stats or title or faction affiliation. Are they dead or alive? I don't know. I can't seem to click on the bastard. Is that a dust bandit fighting some hungry bandits or sand ninjas fighting a wanderer? I can't tell. I can't seem to click on the other guy for shit. Let's get a mouse hover tooltip that tells us what the hell we are looking at and whose it is and what it is doing and what state it is in. BUT! But make me have to use binoculars or a spy glass so it isn't all the time which would likely be irritating in the other direction. Currently, I can have all the info I need if I just click on the thing I'm looking at. Except a lot of time I can't when I pause it I can't while it's moving either. The cursor just never finds the right pixel or something. Make this better because it is used constantly. It is part of the meat and potatoes of the game.
I like the new UI but I wish the squad member portraits were drag and drop so that I could rearrange them. Sometimes you just want certain people to be your 1-4 folks.
Squad AIs would be really well served by being able to tie people (figuratively, but graphicall too) together from one to the other to denote heirarchies and relationships. It should just be easier to give orders to groups through the UI that the AI can handle on it's own. If it isn't going to be set in stone then I should be able to organize and group units together that have things in common and in synergistic ways like guards for the farmers or scientists and guards for the gate or, healer for these people but not these. Or repairman for this town but not a builder. We need to be able to setup a sustainable, functional group that can be left alone and we need more tools than lassos and button clicks to do it. Commanding all your units as a herd still sucks even though you can now separate the weaklings from the fighters. Better than it was, though.
I find Kenshi to be really personal and engaging when it's just my starting character struggling to survive his first massive head trauma to turn into the toughest SOB I know he can be. It all makes sense at that scale and works well with the interface that exists. And it all sort of breaks down in usability as you add more people to your faction. Especially when your people are in a few different places. You can have that same personal and engaging experience with any of your people controlling them singularly but you just know that your other people are getting screwed while you aren't around.
I'm hopeful these are all just placeholders for systems that haven't been polished on.
P.S. - keep up the good work. I can't wait till there is blood. =)
Personaly the dead towns and unattractive and generic models.
For example the first research bench isn't powered, so why make it made of steel with all the random stuff tacked on? If its a rank one object it would be better if it actualy looked like a makeshift item rather then a steel mass produced item.
Plus everything being made of generic industrial concrete just looks weird in its setting, even if you just gave things a rougher more homemade texture and please add more colours, fallout can have colour why can't this?
Also the ability to make items inside a town or build a structure attached to the town (such as have a house with a furnace attached) and some other ways to earn money early on like doing town errands.
Also if weapons are supposedly meant to be made in a town it would be nice if there was actually a factory there (maybe that could be a method of earning money) and would make the town feel more alive. Plus some npc business like farms thrown in would make things feel more alive too.
For example the first research bench isn't powered, so why make it made of steel with all the random stuff tacked on? If its a rank one object it would be better if it actualy looked like a makeshift item rather then a steel mass produced item.
Plus everything being made of generic industrial concrete just looks weird in its setting, even if you just gave things a rougher more homemade texture and please add more colours, fallout can have colour why can't this?
Also the ability to make items inside a town or build a structure attached to the town (such as have a house with a furnace attached) and some other ways to earn money early on like doing town errands.
Also if weapons are supposedly meant to be made in a town it would be nice if there was actually a factory there (maybe that could be a method of earning money) and would make the town feel more alive. Plus some npc business like farms thrown in would make things feel more alive too.
To the above poster: actually, in a desert setting, like the one Kenshi is in until the new map is done, the natural choice for housing would be mud huts, possibly reinforced with sticks. Concrete is basically the same thing, but more durable, so it actually makes sense.
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Anonymouse_Captain
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:40 pm
- Location: Steam
Lots, and I mean a lot of fragmented files when you first download the game, when I checked it, it had about 500~600 files that were fragmented! After defragmenting the game, it became faster and a little less buggy, I think you should clean up your files soon guys!
P.S: When reading your dev blog, I read that implementing something is less time consuming then bug fixing or something like that, how long have you worked on fixing and polishing the game versus implementing the new features?
P.S: When reading your dev blog, I read that implementing something is less time consuming then bug fixing or something like that, how long have you worked on fixing and polishing the game versus implementing the new features?
"That's it! Cheese! We'll go somewhere where there's cheese!" -Wallace
Well here I am, Back after one year.
Surprise, Surprise
Nothing changed in the game, as I stated a year ago, no major changes just small fixes and new content that has no value, like WOW lights!!!
People are still being held in a dream that everything will be fine, last update was January, THE BIG UPDATE IS COMING! we are in end March, nothing there.
Sweet dreams to all the unbelievable blind people who still think this game will turn into something.
It is a money machine and nothing more!
Still running around in the desert, nothing to do, some new buildings, and yes my god LIGHT! how amazingly Herculan task that must have been to develop, and let us not forget the huge frog!
Complete new games have been developed in this time, and this game is still not finished.
It is the snail of all snail pace in development, and why? $$$$$$$$$$
They should ban Lofi on steam, and all other studios who try to make fast money like this.
Surprise, Surprise
Nothing changed in the game, as I stated a year ago, no major changes just small fixes and new content that has no value, like WOW lights!!!
People are still being held in a dream that everything will be fine, last update was January, THE BIG UPDATE IS COMING! we are in end March, nothing there.
Sweet dreams to all the unbelievable blind people who still think this game will turn into something.
It is a money machine and nothing more!
Still running around in the desert, nothing to do, some new buildings, and yes my god LIGHT! how amazingly Herculan task that must have been to develop, and let us not forget the huge frog!
Complete new games have been developed in this time, and this game is still not finished.
It is the snail of all snail pace in development, and why? $$$$$$$$$$
They should ban Lofi on steam, and all other studios who try to make fast money like this.
Well I don't think it has gone on sale in the past year, so your "step 2" still hasn't happened yet and there is news about an update possibly as early as next week so that's not looking so good for "step 3" either. 
Edit: There are some pretty pictures of updates here: http://lofigames.com/gallery/
p.s. you wouldn't happen to be the IronFist from a certain War of Empires would you?
Edit: There are some pretty pictures of updates here: http://lofigames.com/gallery/
p.s. you wouldn't happen to be the IronFist from a certain War of Empires would you?
AMD Athlon II x4 635 processor 2.9GHz
8 GB RAM
NVidia GeForce 9800 GT
Windows 7 home premium
8 GB RAM
NVidia GeForce 9800 GT
Windows 7 home premium
Alright, lets start. Hello, I've wanted this game for a long time. I have the alpha version on steam, beta content version, alls well. Aside from the numerous crashes and bugs, but thats to be expected - however this is not why I'm here to rant to you, reader. I'm here to rant because I want to know this game, that i've legit had dreams about in the last year, is not dead. "But its not!" - Reader, Oh my dear Watson, it appears otherwise. Look at the site - I understand its not of utmost importance in comparison to actual progress being made on the game, but its important nonetheless. Take the social media links for example, you're people working on the game, but all forms of advertisement must be taken advantage of! Social media is free, post spoilers of in game content more often, even if its nothing! "Ey guis look at dis new textured bone, pretty sweet eh?!" I'm content with this, it lets the community following the game know that some progress is being made. "But there's a progress page!" This is true, yes. And if you look through the posts, you see ETA's building up, then being pushed back, which disheartens me. I want to see this game finished, I realize there may be real-world reasons of why things are being delayed, but I sincerely ask that you don't put out "On this date baby, prepare to clench" and not be able to live up to it. Let me use an analogy, I am the eight year old boy. You, Shrek, told me you would be there, but when I felt the warmth moving towards me - my hopes rising - I'm dismayed by the fact its nothing but an obese pedophile breathing from 10 yards away. You can't be playing with my feels like this mang. Deliver on given dates. Hell, don't underestimate the time it will take to release updates - overestimate! When you put out an ETA on content and manage to release it before this given date, it causes the little loli in all of us to throw our arms into the sky and scream, as our dreams just came true. Great work to date, oh and one last thing if i don't get muh beta before April 1st i'm going to breathe very heavy and type very fast on this post
P.S Some form of multiplayer should be put in place, playing this with friends would be great. Direct connect to a hosts' ip through one of the various apps for that, eh?
P.S Some form of multiplayer should be put in place, playing this with friends would be great. Direct connect to a hosts' ip through one of the various apps for that, eh?
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Hatsune_Neko
- Moderator
- Posts: 4086
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:59 am
- Location: Columbus, OH
social Media is used. i got the links posted on Steam plus they have fallow me links on the main web page.
as for ETA, they also add Unknown and give best guesses of when they might be able to get it out. They never give out exact dates, they did once and missed it due to bugs, the uproar over that was enough to make sure they never do that again.
Multiplayer will not be added, this has been stated about a thousand times on steam and on these forums and the why.
as for ETA, they also add Unknown and give best guesses of when they might be able to get it out. They never give out exact dates, they did once and missed it due to bugs, the uproar over that was enough to make sure they never do that again.
Multiplayer will not be added, this has been stated about a thousand times on steam and on these forums and the why.
Do you believe the sexes should be equal?
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
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Mattk50
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:22 pm
- Location: A far away land where bug testing is entertainment.
Hey folks, looking forward to the update, just saw the trailer. But it hit me while watching, still no blood effects! I remember seeing blood in one of the early trailers, it wasn't a great effect and back then the plan was to re-implement better it at some point.
Anyways, kenshi without blood feels like its missing something vital, i need oceans of blood to swim in, chris.
Anyways, kenshi without blood feels like its missing something vital, i need oceans of blood to swim in, chris.
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Hatsune_Neko
- Moderator
- Posts: 4086
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:59 am
- Location: Columbus, OH
blood effects are supposed to be re-added near final release if i remember reading it right.
Do you believe the sexes should be equal?
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
-
Hatsune_Neko
- Moderator
- Posts: 4086
- Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:59 am
- Location: Columbus, OH
in time it will become available.marius.m wrote:Guys, will we see a non steam update? I mean I paid for it and we're still sticking around 0,7something - or did I miss something?
but the Beta isn't available to normal users at the moment. only those who opted into the experimental build on steam as we hunt down most the initial bugs that came with its release.
Do you believe the sexes should be equal?
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
Oh heavens no.
Then Men would become unmanageable
Current computer specs.
AMD FX-8150 - Eight Core, 3.60GHz
NVidia GTX 1050TI
24GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 MHz Ram
WD 1tb HD, 870 EVO 1TB SSD
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Mattk50
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:22 pm
- Location: A far away land where bug testing is entertainment.
You know lo-fi, racism and sexism are one thing, but today i had a holy paladin yelled "seductress! Dont let her get away!" as he fought a wild dog. Now, i don't know what kind of game your running here, but if the holy paladins are really that tempted by dogs im not sure i want to see whats going to happen after he captures it. To preserve my innocence, i immediately uninstalled the game and sent a complaint to my local constabulary. You're on thin ice lo-fi.
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Gauthier Henrio
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:46 pm
Wait, what you're describing is not part of the official version, it's the developer only version! How did you get it?!Mattk50 wrote:You know lo-fi, racism and sexism are one thing, but today i had a holy paladin yelled "seductress! Dont let her get away!" as he fought a wild dog. Now, i don't know what kind of game your running here, but if the holy paladins are really that tempted by dogs im not sure i want to see whats going to happen after he captures it. To preserve my innocence, i immediately uninstalled the game and sent a complaint to my local constabulary. You're on thin ice lo-fi.
I have to say though, you made my day.
Update : keep up the good work, I can at least play again without hard locking my system, I'm hoping you'll manage to iron out the last probs.
original :
It's a bit of a shame to see the same bugs pop up over and over, it makes me lose faith they will ever improve. It almost feels like going around in circles, seeing similar bugs/behaviours pop up to resolve zoning crashes. I'm hoping that with the new terrain now we'll finally see most zoning bugs/crashes disappear soon, else it becomes really hard to even test this game. I don't mind a crash to desktop once and a while, but 5 hard reboots in 1 day I don't feel like testing/playing anymore
.
I'll be waiting for a couple more updates before trying again, happy bug hunting!
original :
It's a bit of a shame to see the same bugs pop up over and over, it makes me lose faith they will ever improve. It almost feels like going around in circles, seeing similar bugs/behaviours pop up to resolve zoning crashes. I'm hoping that with the new terrain now we'll finally see most zoning bugs/crashes disappear soon, else it becomes really hard to even test this game. I don't mind a crash to desktop once and a while, but 5 hard reboots in 1 day I don't feel like testing/playing anymore
.I'll be waiting for a couple more updates before trying again, happy bug hunting!
Last edited by overdhose on Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really enjoy the constant updates you guys have been doing in the last few days, it's been huge progress and fixed several issues that I was having. But now I feel like I'm running out of content. When should I be expecting an expansion to the current map? I have the impression that all assets should be done, so I'm assuming soon-ish?
I'd imagine that optimizations is extremely important before the playable area gets bigger. Because the more area that's operating, the more you'll have going on. This means more units, more AI's, and overall more madness. More ram usage, lower fps, etc..sid wrote:I really enjoy the constant updates you guys have been doing in the last few days, it's been huge progress and fixed several issues that I was having. But now I feel like I'm running out of content. When should I be expecting an expansion to the current map? I have the impression that all assets should be done, so I'm assuming soon-ish?
A smaller playable area makes it easier for people to play the game and help sort out feature functionality and stability, without the hassle of the above.. So basically, I'd imagine that once the game is stable, and optimized a bit, we'll see a new area open up. It'll likely be a process before the entire map is opened up, rather than opening it up immidiately and everyone's computers running out of memory 30 seconds in.
Step by step, gradual buildup. It'll get there though...
I know that doesn't really answer your question as to a timeframe, but hopefully it'll explain the reasoning behind the slow progress of map area...
OS: Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3570K CPU @ 3.40GHz (4 CPUs), ~3.4GHz
Memory: 16Gb
AMD Radeon R9 390 Series
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3570K CPU @ 3.40GHz (4 CPUs), ~3.4GHz
Memory: 16Gb
AMD Radeon R9 390 Series
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