Ridiculously Feminist Lore

[Vispilio]

there is no 'always'.

There are women who can and have over come males who were 'on the top' of the ladder .

theres more to fighting than physical prowess. All you have to be able to do to beat someone stronger is move faster and know where to strike.

And

Men and Women are 'equal' They may be physically different but women can be smarter , faster, and more decisive than men, just as men can be so to women.

I would also note that historically it was a "shameful" act for men to lose to women , so the odds of them recording times when women bested men in combat would be very few. both because Men usually wrote the stories we hear in history. and because it would be hard to get people to believe the story due to the preconception that you continue to show. in that women are "weaker" than men.

which isn't true.

and your wrong if you literally wanna use the term "Any competition".

Women have surpassed men to become Grandmasters in Chess.

There are women who have invented an discovered things in science that men attempted to learn an failed to.

some of the top record holders in the world in things like track , Soccer, and tennis are women.

there are women who are better pilots than men. there are women who have out performed men in Singing, and Dance competiions.

there are women who have out performed men in the business/financial side of the world.

"anything a man can do" , a woman is capable of doing. and vice versa.

But narrow minded people rarely change their minds. ^.^

after all people always need to look down on people. an be my guest. and obviously those of us who see equality are happier than you, other wise you wouldn't be trying to force your narrative an convince the game makers to change simply because they treat women 'equally'......in the game.

We have gone way off track I guess, but I'm just writing out of intellectual curiosity. What makes you fanatically believe that "top record holders" in some of these competitions that you mention like soccer, chess, piloting and even business and finance are women, when even a simple google search of the best results in each and every one of these categories would show you and anyone interested that it's always men at the very top. Chessmaster with highest FIDE points, ALWAYS a man.
Pilot with fastest times and highest accuracy hits, ALWAYS a man. Fastest sprinter: ALWAYS a man. Heaviest weightlifter: ALWAYS a man. Most profitable hedge fund manager: ALWAYS a man. Most influential inventor of any era: ALWAYS a man; the list goes on to infinity.

When all human experience point to overwhelming male superiority at the top echelons of human achievement, we have to consider that there is a dark and evil political agenda brainwashing the masses that it should be otherwise, especially after seeing that the vast majority of modern men are now doubting (and even vehemently rejecting) which should be a very self evident and easily observable reality...

[Roccandil]

Since recognizing that men are, on average, physically stronger than women is itself politically incorrect, I have no qualms also recognizing that there is a feminist agenda not driven by reality (at least in the West). I simply don't see that agenda in Kenshi.

I'll add that studies presented to me by People Who Ought to Know indicate that the average female IQ is higher than the average male IQ. The difference is that female IQs tend to cluster around the mean, whereas male IQs tend to be more exceptional: both high and low. While more male dunces will exist than female, more male geniuses will also exist, which is one possible explanation for largely finding males at the top of many fields, scientific and otherwise, while at the same time finding a preponderance of males at the bottom of society (homeless, for instance).

I'll also add that one sport in which females have a physical advantage over males is sharpshooting. (The male body interferes more with shooting precisely.)

Anyhow, I've presented the above because I'm more interested in technical correctness than political correctness.

[Boudicca]

As for the game there is not one single place where the lore could be called "ideology". It's a fantasy game, set on a different planet in a different reality from our own. There is no codex of myth or literature in the game that matches anything we'd call "feminist literature". So that basically leaves us at the point where anyone who is apoplectically reacting to the Kenshi females doing something they *just can't believe* is seeing ghosts and falling prey to the *failure of imagination fallacy*.

As Roccandil is saying there is significant statistical overlap between men and women *over an entire population* in real life. Arguing extremes isn't just a logical problem it's also an empirical one. It's downright just trying to troll-provoke. There is no SJW conspiracy just as there is no SWM conspiracy -- there are just angry people that just don't like what other angry people say. It's tiresome.

Now, the reason I'm responding is that I feel this topic erodes community and further has no constructive application to the game. Saying you don't like a myth about an alien humanoid in the game because it isn't believable is like me saying I don't like the fact an entire building's worth of material can be packed into one little box. It's a meaningless complaint. I want the game developers to know they're making an awesome game -- and honestly they are free to portray lore and characters and everything any way they see fit.

[Vispilio]

As for the game there is not one single place where the lore could be called "ideology". It's a fantasy game, set on a different planet in a different reality from our own. There is no codex of myth or literature in the game that matches anything we'd call "feminist literature". So that basically leaves us at the point where anyone who is apoplectically reacting to the Kenshi females doing something they *just can't believe* is seeing ghosts and falling prey to the *failure of imagination fallacy*.

As Roccandil is saying there is significant statistical overlap between men and women *over an entire population* in real life. Arguing extremes isn't just a logical problem it's also an empirical one. It's downright just trying to troll-provoke. There is no SJW conspiracy just as there is no SWM conspiracy -- there are just angry people that just don't like what other angry people say. It's tiresome.

Now, the reason I'm responding is that I feel this topic erodes community and further has no constructive application to the game. Saying you don't like a myth about an alien humanoid in the game because it isn't believable is like me saying I don't like the fact an entire building's worth of material can be packed into one little box. It's a meaningless complaint. I want the game developers to know they're making an awesome game -- and honestly they are free to portray lore and characters and everything any way they see fit.

It's not a matter of belief or personal opinion. The sun has a greater chance of exploding tomorrow than a female contender surpassing a supreme male champion in combat, or really in any of the other fields we already mentioned. It's the same whether you are a lion, a wolf or a human . Nothing apoplectic about it, it's just hardcore reality. Deep down even you know it, many other people also know it, and yet very few are brave enough to even express such an absolute truth, that is such cowardly times we live in...

Having said that, I congratulate the exceptional posters like Roccandil here for having an open mind and showing true intellect amidst a very bleak current of political correctness.

[Roccandil]

The sun has a greater chance of exploding tomorrow than a female contender surpassing a supreme male champion in combat,

That's hyperbole! I'll relate a Kenshi-style story a co-worker once told me about professional Japanese sword-fighters. Evidently their sword matches only go for a few strokes before they are judged complete, because by that time it's evident who has won.

My co-worker was a newbie, and sparred with a Japanese sword-fighting champion. Nevertheless, my co-worker won the first match because for his first move he faked a common mistake newbies make, the champ assumed it was a mistake, and lost. The champ congratulated my co-worker profusely, and then proceeded to beat him black and blue in their remaining matches.

But, the point was that when it counted, the champion would have lost.

Or, as was said a long time ago,

"I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."

So, would I expect a male champion to usually beat a female champion in many physically-oriented sports? Yes. Always? No.

[Shidan]

For the sake of argument, let's assume you're right, and men are inherently stronger than women. Where is the problem?

You seem to be incredibly upset that Esata the Stone Golem somehow defeated Shagar, the previous king of the Shek Kingdom. A battle we have next to no information on, that happened a long time ago. You seem to call Esata the "Greatest Warrior of her species", but where is your source for that?

You could assume that Shagar was the greatest warrior previously, but that would be pure speculation. We know literally nothing of his rise to power, and the Shek are generally extremely loyal, so they would never challenge a king they didn't think was doing something wrong or cowardly. For all we know, he was a warrior with merely average fighting abilities, but with exceptional bravery. Which counts for quite a bit in Shek culture.

And even IF you assume he was their greatest warrior, that doesn't mean Esata is inherently stronger. A battle is decided on far more than the pure strength of the warriors. The conditions prior to the combat, and the tactics and equipment employed by the warriors are far more important.

We know nearly nothing about the conditions of that duel, beyond that it was after a grueling battle with the Holy Nation, and that Shagar was furious with rage. What was the health of the warriors like? Is it possible that Shagar was already injured?

What about the tactics used by the warriors? Shek culture proclaims you should always attack the weakest target. So creating and exploiting vulnerabilities is something they would be expected to do. And we already know that Esata is smarter than Shagar. How easily would she have been able to exploit his rage or a potential injury?

Do you truly believe there is literally no way Esata could have ever beaten Shagar? Even with all of these unknowns? Or are you that upset that a woman defeated a man, period?

[Gauthier Henrio]

I haven't written that specific book but I know the book is about Empress Esata of the Shek.

The male and female Shek are physically equal.

Furthermore, I take issue with many of your statements.

"You have to see the bigger picture when analyzing both this game and history. I guarantee you there is not a single case in history where a woman physically defeated a champion warrior king in combat. It's biologically and anatomically impossible."

It is absolutely not biologically nor anatomically impossible.

First you fail to take into account that fighting is FAR from just being about physical strength. Skill, quickness and wits are very important factors that cannot be overlooked. Go right ahead to find tons of evidence about skillful warriors who defeated physically superior warriors to support that statement.

Secondly you misinterpret the natural differences between human men and women. Just because men have a natural advantage does not result in men having absolutely always greater strength than any woman: some men have below than average muscle mass and testosterone whereas some women have higher than average muscle mass. This can result in some women naturally being stronger than men. Put an outlier of the left side of the curve for the men against an outlier to the right side of the curve for the women and I'm betting my money on the woman. And you will have noticed that this is under the assumption that men have a natural advantage, I do acknowledge that, but it does not mean that even naturally, ALL men will have greater natural physical strength.

Third you are obviously very heavily biased on the topic and it affects your perception. You did not even question who the King that Esata dethroned was. He might have been a very weak warrior king for all we know. You straight away went after the warrior king's opponent Esata because you cannot imagine a woman beating a man in combat. I can easily believe that a Spartan woman in the 500-400 BC could defeat an Athenian hoplite.

Of course this is according to my understand of human physiology and statistics but I don't think I am in the wrong here.

"You have to see the bigger picture when analyzing both this game and history. I guarantee you there is not a single case in history where a woman physically defeated a champion warrior king in combat."

Ironic that you are telling others to see the bigger picture when analyzing history. History, in my point of view, is also knowing what we don't know and we don't know everything about history, only what the evidence can let us know. Therefore saying "I can guarantee you there is not a single case in history" is the equivalent of claiming that you know all of history in its integrity and objectively, making you I guess a super-human.

Needless to say that third point also affected the following statement "Needlessly depicting women in positions of power and leadership is by far the most ridiculous feature of this game."

There might very well have been a very specific case of a duel between a female and a male warrior with the female warrior being the victory. I haven't done research on it myself but I know that there are cases of female warriors and definitely female leaders in history.

Besides all that, as someone who is working on Kenshi and has written a few books, you shouldn't simply accept everything as "the truth."

And finally "but I think pure artistic creativity of indie projects like this should be free from all dogma, and particularly from those with dark agendas..." You do realize that you yourself are politically biased as well right? For instance I could easily qualify your views of "conservative" and "patriarchal" as I believe that, from my perception of reality, the differences between men and women are by in large social, and that the natural differences, while present, and vastly overestimated, especially regarding the behavioral impact. No one is objective, we all perceive reality through our own perceptions. I refer you to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason regarding that.

[Vispilio]

For the sake of argument, let's assume you're right, and men are inherently stronger than women. Where is the problem?

You seem to be incredibly upset that Esata the Stone Golem somehow defeated Shagar, the previous king of the Shek Kingdom. A battle we have next to no information on, that happened a long time ago. You seem to call Esata the "Greatest Warrior of her species", but where is your source for that?
...

Do you truly believe there is literally no way Esata could have ever beaten Shagar? Even with all of these unknowns? Or are you that upset that a woman defeated a man, period?

...
And finally "but I think pure artistic creativity of indie projects like this should be free from all dogma, and particularly from those with dark agendas..." You do realize that you yourself are politically biased as well right? For instance I could easily qualify your views of "conservative" and "patriarchal" as I believe that, from my perception of reality, the differences between men and women are by in large social, and that the natural differences, while present, and vastly overestimated, especially regarding the behavioral impact. No one is objective, we all perceive reality through our own perceptions. I refer you to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason regarding that.

Just to respond to some very valid points and questions raised by the last 2 commentators, and thanks for the reference to Kantian epistemology :

I think Esata has the highest stats among all the Shek if not of all NPC's in Kenshi (Str, Dex, Att, Def etc.), also such is the case with at least a few other female characters like the leader of Flotsam Ninjas.

So, combining the above with some bizarre lore entries, you can easily conclude that the game developers clearly think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a female of various human or human inspired species to be the most powerful specimen of their kind. And that there is absolutely no natural differences between the capabilities of men and women in those said species. Not a big deal, but completely immersion breaking in a game famous for its otherwise brutal realism and hardcore attitude.

The only modern game I know that is bold enough to have a realistic, natural treatment of sexual differences is the GTA series, and even though the latest entry is flawed in so many ways, it's no coincidence it's the highest earning game of all times...

In brief, I would like to see more and more intellectual developers & their customers free themselves from the completely false premises of malevolent feminist propaganda...

[Shidan]

Looking at the actual stats of the strongest NPCs in the game, there are 3 distinct tiers I see. Keep in mind, the stats are somewhat random. For strength comparisons I used the maximum possible values.

1. Two Major Faction leaders, of which Esata is one. She is outdone by the other one, The Holy Lord Phoenix, a man.

2. Two Minor Faction leaders, Moll is also outdone by her male counterpart, Arc.

3. Three Bodyguards, all have random genders. However, that random gender is biased heavily in favor of male. In one case it's an 89% chance, another is 70%, the other is 50%. Overall, you'll have far more men in this class, especially since the 50% one is highly limited in how many can spawn in the world.

This looks to me much like the world you are wanting. You're only taking note of the females because they stick out to you. But in reality, they always seem to be one step behind the men. Whether intentional by design or not. I certainly don't see any "malevolent feminist propaganda" here, do you?

[Zeal]

Well, read quite a bit of this, as difficult as it was.
Taking this from an external standpoint, i'm just not seeing how any of this has anything to do with feminism.

A warrior species woman defeated a male of the same species in a fictional game. How exactly does this tie into our own real-world social problems?

You said it's catering to propaganda, but It sort of feels like your perspective of it is in fact biased by said propaganda. If our society wasn't in as much of a mess as it is now, no one would bat an eyelash at this. It is simply lore created by someone who is trying to be creative. Why you're so up in arms about this, I don't understand.

As for the statements that "no woman has ever beaten a man in our entire history", you're mistaken. Though I suppose that doesn't need to be said, as it's been covered before, prowess does not mean muscle mass only.
Take Ng Mui for example, as the founder of Wing-Chun, which is an art created for exactly this purpose. Taking down foes larger and stronger than you. And that it did.

Even if Esata was physically stronger, this does not mean a woman who is physically weaker could not take him down. Tactics, and luck can take you a long ways ahead of others who should "rightfully" win.

[Sol Lignum]

I see here some Holy Nation zealots, led by OP, trying to flood this place with their flamy religion (all puns intended). Nothing more. I suggest we put it down to jokes, have some tea and forget this obvious provocation for good For the sake of community health.

May the π b wid ya!

[toaster Assassin]

In my opinion this topic was handled well (no one acted like an asshat). So, as all sides presented their points of argument,we might as well let this topic come to a close. (like Sol suggested)



So,

Welcome to Kenshi forums Vispilio,HHRRIISSTT,Boudicca!

As a sign of welcome, please enjoy this horrific photo of a shirtless fat man enjoying a cup of tea.

images.jpeg (7.62 KiB) Viewed 3770 times

[StarWeaver]

...., it's a huge logic hole, obviously written by a politically correct sjw / feminist member of their team because of their staff constraints, and should be addressed before such a promising games falls into intellectual mediocrity that has already tainted so many once top class titles...

Yeah, the game's world, setting, and lore is the sole responsibility of one person, the one developer this game's had for seven years. So, well, if his vision of his world and his people doing his lore things doesn't suit you, the door's over there.