Improved research

[Seimears]

Can also make it so it relates with the crafter. After maken 10 rusty swords and breaking them down in research pluse time you learn to make a better one. Then 10 or even more of the new kind and learn a newer style or stronger model.

Can even expand on that by maken like for instance the katana. You have learned it and the Sabre but over time you will want a sword with both abilities. So over time your researchers learn to make the topper or you can just find or buy a couple break them down and study them and then learn how to make them. Either way would work. This way there are no blue prints you can learn to make anything in the game by re-enginering and with time on research and most all will have a way to make them better or stronger or advance through research.

I know something like this was suggested earlier I am just putting my 2 bits in.

[philthymcnasty]

After playing with the latest updates, i believe that research needs some work.

For example, the improved turret topics pop up, despite my guys never having used the turrets.

Now in evil genius, the scientists walked around, looked at stuff, and this unlocked topics. In kenshi, if you look at the science skill, it says "being sciency" as a way to improve this. So perhaps a "figure out how to make this better option" would help improve the science skill, as well as reward high level science.


As for the reverse engineering, thanks to updates, for some odd reason, my main dude now has "good" grade mercenary plate. The stats are just ridiculous. I have yet to find ANY similar grade armor in the game. I am under the assumption that on a later update we will get to unlock better grades of armor.

I also feel that a "merger" style would be cool, for example, merging mercenary plate with holy empire armor to create "absurdly heavy but protecting armor", with further research making it less heavy and more maneuverable, would not only be cool, but should attract contracts with the nations.

I also want to see rival weapons companies attack my base like the bandits too.

[Chompster]

I simply agree way too much with all of this and was about to make my own thread suggesting the ability to break items down to understand and reproduce them but then i stumbled onto this after a few more searches.

I know this is like a year necro but i can't hold myself back anymore. I regret nothiiiiiing!

[philthymcnasty]

Necroing my own thread here.....


After getting 100 more hours into the game, i have come to a conclusion: research benches should not be the only research device.

And a lot of people are annoyed about the lack of upgrading for research benches too.

so the soultion, is more test equipment, and different types of test equipment.

So instead of a research bench, we will have to build research labs.

And new research equipment will add some more fun to the game. Like autopsy tables for animals and people, drafting tables, microscopes, horticulture sample tables, soil sample tables, and various other stuff.

So that way, instead of locking one guy in a building and have him research for days on end until we get edge five weapons, we will actually have to go out and do things.

It would also make research fun to look at too. Maybe even make lab coats that add bonuses to first aid and science.

[Chinsei]

hm, while not many people would like it, i'd like it if research followed a more realistic path. people go out they get ideas then they present the idea to the 'boss' which in this case is your character(assuming independant).

an then you can look into it or ignore it, not all research options should have a viable result immediately after all there are plenty of examples of research that people didn't immediately see the value of an gave up on, only for years down the road someone else to do , an find some major discovery.

but also because research isn't always successful.

chalk boards, notebooks, an other things to keep track of notes perhaps for characters to erm well note things and do equations an stuff.

Chemistry labs, for research things like fertilizers , or well since there the rage now perhaps even something as simple (chemistry wise) as an energy drink.

by extension perhaps if we can have police in our own settlement we could also have police patrol the town and watch as they question/interrogate people. even if they aren't directly in our control . to sovle a crime that may have occured.

watching people go around researching, and interrogating people might make the game feel more alive. after all jut having NPC walk around isn't a very 'lively' thing alot of games set NPC to patrol a certain path but it doesn't give the resemblance of life . just a zombie apcolaypse (perhapse there could be a chance of fantasy warning: a chance of unlocking plagues through chemsitry research. such as well zombieness cause 'theoretically' it is possible to create zombies perhaps not hollywood style but there are parasites , and diseases that might be able to take control an make the person behave as such.) .

Multiple fields of research would be nice.

[philthymcnasty]

hm, while not many people would like it, i'd like it if research followed a more realistic path. people go out they get ideas then they present the idea to the 'boss' which in this case is your character(assuming independant).

an then you can look into it or ignore it, not all research options should have a viable result immediately after all there are plenty of examples of research that people didn't immediately see the value of an gave up on, only for years down the road someone else to do , an find some major discovery.

but also because research isn't always successful.

chalk boards, notebooks, an other things to keep track of notes perhaps for characters to erm well note things and do equations an stuff.

Chemistry labs, for research things like fertilizers , or well since there the rage now perhaps even something as simple (chemistry wise) as an energy drink.

by extension perhaps if we can have police in our own settlement we could also have police patrol the town and watch as they question/interrogate people. even if they aren't directly in our control . to sovle a crime that may have occured.

watching people go around researching, and interrogating people might make the game feel more alive. after all jut having NPC walk around isn't a very 'lively' thing alot of games set NPC to patrol a certain path but it doesn't give the resemblance of life . just a zombie apcolaypse (perhapse there could be a chance of fantasy warning: a chance of unlocking plagues through chemsitry research. such as well zombieness cause 'theoretically' it is possible to create zombies perhaps not hollywood style but there are parasites , and diseases that might be able to take control an make the person behave as such.) .

Multiple fields of research would be nice.

You must try evil genius on gog... that is how research in that game is done

[Chinsei]

been there done that wish Eidos would make a second one by now >.>

Though >.> i didn't like it because i couldn't find a way to stop people from deserting fro mlow loyalty >.> so i jut shot them an tortured them...and brainwashed them into go back to work...till i realised they started stealing gold when they couldn't escape >.>

[philthymcnasty]

I really want to see some of these elements in kenshi....

But right now, as it stands, the research needs a lot more work.

Like you can rescue an enslaved peasant, and have them uncover the riddle of steel for you after several days of research...

[swillo]

Necroing this one more time for some new ideas because I felt they are close enough to the same topic and I didn't know if it was better to necro or double post an idea.

I'm thinking of "Experimental Research". The biggest issue that I have with research in all games that I have played is the idea that I run out of things to research. I think that after you research Known topics, you should be able to research unknown areas of those areas.

Experimental research would have no limits and could be done over and over in the same area. However the chance of results would be not be 100%. Every time you research a topic you would have a % chance to find a breakthrough based on your science skill and the level of what you are researching. The more times you try and fail the higher the percent goes up. (like with picking a lock). Once you succeed the percent drops back down for the next attempt. When you succeed you will get a percentage increase in that topic.

Examples are Generators. increase the power by .1-.5 each time. or decrease the fuel usage by .1-.5 for each breakthrough.
For crafting you could affect one stat on armor, like the weight, the coverage, the defense.
forging you could add .1 to your weapons damage. etc....

There are tons of areas that this could be applied to make researching an unlimited endeavor.
Increase mining efficiency, stone processing speed, processing efficiency, power output, weapon stats, armor stats, training speed, even research speed and quality.

[Hatsune_Neko]

if it's relevant
Necroing a thread is ok.

[Chompster]

Definitely like your idea Swillo, one thing i would add to that though is that aside from researching it would need to be taught to people.

Even right now i find it weird how i can buy a blueprint on the other side of the map to my base, right click it and "learn" it and the people back at my base can make it. I get that this is just placeholder, but eventually i hope that you need to actually bring that blueprint back to a research station, have someone research it and have the workers actually learn it.

So like in the case of your example, you would do experimental research and eventually find a way to increase your processors efficiency. After having done so, a builder would need to study this research before it can be applied to the processor. Maybe even requiring some more building material to apply the changes. While i get this can be a bit tedious for gameplay, a lot of games have this handwaviumness to them that dont make any sense really irk me.

[philthymcnasty]

this is a sandbox game, there is not time limit, no world ending disaster, no hurry. So tedium is fine.

It also opens up new paths for game mechanics....
Like a "school desk", this was in theme hospital, where you could have higher level doctors, teach lower level doctors how to specialize.

Only this time around, we can teach our engineers how to build things better, if they have a high enough skill.

And what would be super cool, is if you have a high reputation for being advanced, traders and engineers from other factions can show up, pay, and learn skills.

So you could sort of have a "university of the wastes".

And it would also make kidnapping more interesting, like if cannibals want a well mk3, they would kidnap someone who could make that....

[philthymcnasty]

I can also see people wanting to join to learn skills too. the dialogue would be great:

"SENPAI!!! Please share your knowledge with me"

Option A: Sure, welcome aboard

Potion b:"ignore"

[Chompster]

Theme Hospital...


Holy nostalgia bomb. You're absolutely right i remember being able to do that in that game. Absolutely played the crap out of it, it's so good and yeah that would be so amazing to have.

[philthymcnasty]

Yeah, its on gog for like 10 bucks if you want it.

But yeah, that system would fit well for kenshi.

I would also love to see an "instruction" command. Like have a person supervise all the training that is going on, to speed it up.

[Abek]

Necroing this one more time for some new ideas because I felt they are close enough to the same topic and I didn't know if it was better to necro or double post an idea.

I'm thinking of "Experimental Research". The biggest issue that I have with research in all games that I have played is the idea that I run out of things to research. I think that after you research Known topics, you should be able to research unknown areas of those areas.

Experimental research would have no limits and could be done over and over in the same area. However the chance of results would be not be 100%. Every time you research a topic you would have a % chance to find a breakthrough based on your science skill and the level of what you are researching. The more times you try and fail the higher the percent goes up. (like with picking a lock). Once you succeed the percent drops back down for the next attempt. When you succeed you will get a percentage increase in that topic.

Examples are Generators. increase the power by .1-.5 each time. or decrease the fuel usage by .1-.5 for each breakthrough.
For crafting you could affect one stat on armor, like the weight, the coverage, the defense.
forging you could add .1 to your weapons damage. etc....

There are tons of areas that this could be applied to make researching an unlimited endeavor.
Increase mining efficiency, stone processing speed, processing efficiency, power output, weapon stats, armor stats, training speed, even research speed and quality.

BUMP! This is a brilliant idea and I love it! I think +.1 damage is too much though. Maybe 0.05 and its like 166 hours. But that's not important. We should definitely see this!

[Zeal]

Definitely like your idea Swillo, one thing i would add to that though is that aside from researching it would need to be taught to people.

Even right now i find it weird how i can buy a blueprint on the other side of the map to my base, right click it and "learn" it and the people back at my base can make it. I get that this is just placeholder, but eventually i hope that you need to actually bring that blueprint back to a research station, have someone research it and have the workers actually learn it.

So like in the case of your example, you would do experimental research and eventually find a way to increase your processors efficiency. After having done so, a builder would need to study this research before it can be applied to the processor. Maybe even requiring some more building material to apply the changes. While i get this can be a bit tedious for gameplay, a lot of games have this handwaviumness to them that dont make any sense really irk me.

Or, since it's a blueprint, have a container on the research bench that requires you to place the blueprint inside the bench in order to research the first level. If the blueprint is removed, the research pauses until the blueprint is placed back into the table. Once the first level is complete, it could consume the blueprint as the completing process, and additional levels could be researched based on other mechanics...

I totally didn't read through the entire thread, but i did glance over it, and saw this bit and this is what came to mind. Because yes, i do find it a bit silly.

Necroing this one more time for some new ideas because I felt they are close enough to the same topic and I didn't know if it was better to necro or double post an idea.

I'm thinking of "Experimental Research". The biggest issue that I have with research in all games that I have played is the idea that I run out of things to research. I think that after you research Known topics, you should be able to research unknown areas of those areas.

Experimental research would have no limits and could be done over and over in the same area. However the chance of results would be not be 100%. Every time you research a topic you would have a % chance to find a breakthrough based on your science skill and the level of what you are researching. The more times you try and fail the higher the percent goes up. (like with picking a lock). Once you succeed the percent drops back down for the next attempt. When you succeed you will get a percentage increase in that topic.

Examples are Generators. increase the power by .1-.5 each time. or decrease the fuel usage by .1-.5 for each breakthrough.
For crafting you could affect one stat on armor, like the weight, the coverage, the defense.
forging you could add .1 to your weapons damage. etc....

There are tons of areas that this could be applied to make researching an unlimited endeavor.
Increase mining efficiency, stone processing speed, processing efficiency, power output, weapon stats, armor stats, training speed, even research speed and quality.

I really love this idea too... I'm not sure how hard it would be to implement with the current assets system and how those things are managed, but... It would certainly be interesting..

[Roger the Architect]

I'm a quite new player at Kenshi and i was about to write a similar idea.



Right now there's a general research system where:

The main and only ability into account is Science (as a general concept)

The items researchable are Books and blueprints.



Taking a bit of your already mentioned ideas, i would go for a system where:

Blueprints: Get rid of them, if you want to research an item, you have to buy, find, stole, scrap it first!... giving more intensives for exploring or developing thieve abilities. So the "new blueprints" would be the Armour, equipment and weapon itself...
Example: Finding a Catun III desert sabre would become a huge discovery!

Books: would be like the current blueprints and would unlock an entire technology after reading it. Books should not cover the previous items thou, instead they shall cover only things like buildings and base items. Additionally a book would have a tier that, to be read and understood, you need a member with equal or better science or engineering ability. (In order to improve science you could simply spend time reading a book in general.
Example 1: How to distil Grog and not ending producing low grade fuel instead. - Wrote by Captin Grog. (Science lvl 32)
Example 2: The Y Home, from the structure to the windows details. - Wrote by Mies Van Der Rohe (Engineering lvl 42)

Armour crafting would be both the ability to craft armours AND to research from found/bought/stolen/scrapped armours.

Smithing would be the hability to craft AND develop new weapons.

Advantages that I see to this system:

1.- More emphasis on travelling and discovering new items.
2.- You could localise techs (according to lore) to different places, for instance you could only found a book that explains how to get combustible from hemp in swamp villages
3.- Okran emprie could have an entire black list of forbidden books!
4.- Specialized factions, you could have a non greenlander, perhaps deadcats?! tribe with high smiting thus smiting research abilities without having a lvl 4 research bench and knowing a heck of even planting green fruits!
And I got a 5th one but i forgot it XD

[rhazik]

I think this is a fantastic thread to Necro. I am very much in favor of a reverse engineering mechanic. I think I would probably go one step further and add multiple crafting skills though. So the introductory skill could be Science.

However, this would also open up Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, Reverse Engineering, Tinkering/Improving (maybe just make this directly linked to science), Architecture, Infrastructure, etc. You can easily break up all of these for the specific workbenches as well.

Instead of just researching things slower, make them item being researched have a minimum science or crafting required skill.

[philthymcnasty]

After playing the new map, i am really loving the artifact system.

It forces me to do expeditions into new lands to find ruins, to set up camps so that the wounded can recover, all for the hunt for AI cores.

However there where some issues: I could not find an armor trader in the UC settlements that sold blueprints, so i had to steal the blueprints for the armor.

While this was fun, it was also a nuisance. Shek sell that armor, why could i not reverse engineer that?

Also i have not found a single AI core. The game requires 8 to complete the research tree, so while the map is half way done, this is still a big problem. This means that potentially there may be games on the finished map, that would not finish the tech tree.

So perhaps a secret alternative system that ties into the dialogue option? the way this would work is if a person has a set value in science + another relevant skill, they can research a new topic but at a huge penalty.

This would also tie into the lore: the holy empire has some mid tier technology, but they do not have ancient science books, so how do they get steel?

Another option is to have an alternative use for surplus items. I have 8 engineering blueprints, and hundreds of books. I hold on to the books for mod added research, and i am holding on the the engineering blueprints because hoarder....

If there was a system where those could be spent at an increased value to possibly unlock new research options, like a studying bench, that would help things.