Friendly Fire & The Micromanagement of Crossbows

[dirkleton]

For shits and giggles, I recently started a run with a squad I'd set up in the FCS that contained 10 guys with toothpicks and the bolts to use them; I just wanted to try out crossbows! What I found, however, is that I needed to *constantly* pause the game during fights and reposition my guys, because they seemed to not care *at all* that they were shooting each other in the back, clustered into a blob!

Either we need a new Squad Follow formation ('Loose Formation', exactly like Military except twice as spread out), or Ranged Combat behavior needs a serious pass: micromanagement is the death of fun and otherwise using our new toys is a quick way to kill your own dudes. Sure, you could stick to toothpicks and wear heavy armor and just *not care* about the piddly bolts plinking off your suit, but NPCs don't have the luxury of choosing an outfit *or* player micromanagement.

Proposal: Characters in Ranged combat mode should try to spread out and move instead of shoot if their planned Line of Fire runs through a friendly or allied character. If they *can't* move, they shouldn't shoot. An added bonus would be to use similar logic on Turret Gunners, preventing them from firing at all if there are friendlies between them and the enemy, but at least with turrets we can put a gate up to keep our guys from running out into the field of fire.

[Hatsune_Neko]

Friendly fire chances are reduced when you get higher skills in that weapons group.

[dirkleton]

While that's awesome and good to know, I'm not specifically talking about firing into a melee. In particular, I'm talking about the archers in the back line, who often end up in a clumped group as they seek out new targets: they often end up in a tightly packed ball, shooting one another! That is, of course, without manual intervention to position them. What I'm talking about is just a way to get characters in Ranged mode to spread out a meter or two from one another during combat.

[swillo]

totally agree the AI is just blind as to LOS for any of the ranged weapons.
I have been using the follow formation set to caravan to get them to make a firing line.
It's not great but reduces the number of back shots.

[Kwikwilyaqa]

The problem is you can't see the real problem: with the current crossbow system you only gain levels when you shoot your own guys (precision shooting?, can't remember the right name).

Without modifying this first a better formation can easily outlevel your rangers and make bolts deadly to the wrong side of the equation (you literally can kill one of your own with one headshot with a master crossbow - or simple dismember with one shot). As it is now is better this "no AI" system because your guys being stupid level both skills, not only the crossbow. I don't like it either, but this division of skills make the broken AI kinda "worthy" (you can translate this sentence like: "yes, everything is wrong"). Need to work first on how the "precision" level works and them combine with better AI and formation - and sure we need that the damn ranger see and react to the mountain/wall/house/gate/elevation/tree/friends/etc. in between him and his enemy.

[dirkleton]

...(you literally can kill one of your own with one headshot with a master crossbow - or simple dismember with one shot)...

That's why I use Toothpicks!

[swillo]

(you literally can kill one of your own with one headshot with a master crossbow - or simple dismember with one shot).

Have had that problem for years with the turrets. Double and multi-barrel harpoons are a death sentence for the poor guy standing next to you. in most my games the only characters with artificial legs were standing next to their buddies firing the turrets. I even had one death by where the person on the turret shot themselves with two harpoons and died.
So it's not just the crossbows. The system would work fine as long as your guys knew enough not to shoot with your own troops in the LOF. That would fix the problems with all ranged weapons in the game and any that are added.

[Sol Lignum]

I believe if shooters would've only fired with clear LOF, they wouldn't fire much at all. Someone, including the shooter at times, is always in the way, so in this case shooting would be restricted to only handfull of situations.

To think about it though, ranged and melee battles were never friends. Shooters would either shoot from the walls or some hill, before enemy troops would get in range to engage in melee with allies, then shooting would've either stopped, or restricted to arcs to get to the far lines of the enemy only.

On one hand, yes, shooters knew better than firing their own people, but on the other hand, melee also knew better than to yolo into battle too soon and interfere whith archers and crossbowmen doing their thing.

Shooting oneself is indeed an issue, but not with friendly fire. It's an issue with how turret's and shooter's positions are handled. If turret can rotate 360, then shooter should move along with it. If it's not possible, i.e. on the walls and roof edges, then turrets should be restricted to something like 180 degree firing dome.

[Alexfighter]

The last comment got me thinking: maybe by default if a battle becomes a clear melee they shootes should switch to secondary weapon and join the fun.

Something like:
- Shoot when the LoF is free.
- If there are no suitable targets in LoF for some time (preferably if there's some way to foresee it rather than just wait uselessly) switch to melee weapon if they have it, and engage.
- Maybe memorize their shooting position and if they see they could have a suitable LoF from there again after the battle has advanced, go back to their main assignment.

[philthymcnasty]

Here is the thing: with toothpicks you WANT your guys to get shot. The damage is not too high, and it does not cause enough bleeding, so it is a great way to level up toughness. The flip side is that the marksmen get better, because they seem to gain both skills: crossbows AND precision shot.