Armor suggestion (very long winded, but detailed, sorry)

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Maldrak
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:06 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:31 pm

Since there seems to be some struggle balancing armor, and I really don't like the idea of plate armor not having complete coverage (there's a reason plates are attached to leather or chain-mail under-layers)...

Each armor would be made of Coverage of each part by material, and "thickness" of coverage of that area, so for example:

A full suit of leather armor may have 100% (thick) leather coverage only, or might be 100% thin leather, 100% thick cloth... short sleeve might be 40% arm, etc.

"Chain reinforced" leather (or studded leather) might be 10/20% chain AND leather (or plate AND Leather) with the remaining 90/80% being leather only (or leather & cloth etc).

"Half plate" might be 40% Plate and chain, and 60% chain (or leather) only.

Breast plate might be 40% plate only, 10% leather only (the straps), and 50% nothing.

Full plate might be 90% plate/chain/thick cloth (padding), 10% chain/thick cloth only.

How damage now works:
==== (TLDR Version) ====
Blades are very good against tough opponents with little/cheap/light armor, blunt weapons are not.

Blunt weapons are much better against heavy armor.

Heavy armor means getting hit alot more often, but for less damage per hit.

Light armor means getting hit less often (dodge and parry more), but for more damage per hit.

Skilled blade wielders make tough but slow opponents VERY nervous, but fully armored goliaths dismissive...
whereas skilled blunt wielders make wimpy fast opponents nervous but slow tough opponents giggle...

Heavy armor can make arrow attacks almost meaningless (unless they get lucky) but also make you move so slowly they can literally walk away and keep attacking until they do get lucky (so you'd better have a light fast, or crossbow wielding friend to pressure them.)

Heavy plate is the best for sieges (since mounted crossbows can't move), but this is why there need to be gate guards (hopefully with plate crushing weapons).

Light armor means getting to the mounted crossbow quicker, but likely with more casualties (since every arrow is more likely to be fatal)...

==== Detailed Description ====
The area hit is rolled (if the armor's "arms" are 40% leather+plate. 60% leather - then 4/10 hits will be to the leather+plate and 6/10 would be to the leather only), then its layers are consulted (in descending order of Plate, Chain, Leather, Cloth - or perhaps the order is defined by the specific suit of armor, as there are such things as leather laminated plate, with metal links/bars/scales between lawyers of leather, etc...) and the damage is reduced/converted appropriately at each layer (or the composite values/damage conversion profile could be predetermined and simply stored/displayed).

Each kind of material has their own properties, as follows:
Pierce resistance (number) - reduces initial piercing damage by this amount
Pierce conversion (number) - converts some remaining piercing (up to this amount) into blunt/concussive
Cut resistance (number) - completely reduces cutting damage by this amount
Cut conversion (number) - converts cutting into blunt/concussive
Blunt (/concussive) resistance (percentage) - reduces blunt damage by this percentage before passing it down...

The "amount" of resistance is based on the material and a diminishing returns on thickness (so double thick plate provides less than double protection, probably more like 50% more per thickness so thickness past 3 or 4 is almost pointless, especially for the weight being added) as follows:

Plate (/scale): moderate cut and pierce resistance, VERY HIGH cut and pierce conversion (any but the hardest cut/pierce hits are completely converted into blunt). Low blunt resistance (though some, it does distribute the impact, which is actually very meaningful, but, at least classically, the weapon of choice against plate was a hammer/mace since the plate just propagates the impact with little to no interference). But plate can't be 100% coverage (all others can), so the key to arrows vs plate is to hit the leather/chain joints. (though very powerful arrows did, and still can, penetrate plate).

Chain: Almost no pierce resistance or pierce conversion, cut resistance, or blunt resistance, VERY high cut conversion. Basically this is what chain does, it turns a blade into a blunt object. It does also "bunch" and "snare," so it does reduce blunt and arrow damage a little, but chain armor was almost never without an under-layer for a reason - unless it's just meant to stop the edge (like a kitchen knife glove/shark armor).

Leather: medium Pierce, Cut and Blunt resistance, a little pierce/cut conversion (leather, like the skin it is, actually parts pretty easily and does little to stop a sharp edge, but is effective against not so sharp edges). This means Leather is a good "all purpose" armor, stopping VERY weak attacks only and helping a little against almost any kind of attack, but is heavier than cloth (even thick cloth).

Cloth/Silk: Very ittle Pierce/Cut resistance and almost no (or actually no) pierce/cut conversion (while cloth might not do much to actually stop an arrow/blade, the cloth does actually still provide surprising protection in the form of clotting assistance and fibers that carry into the wound helping the wound to stay closed compared to bare skin). HIGH blunt resistance (this is what padding/thick cloth is for).

Piercing/Cutting Damage is first mitigated, then converted to blunt, then reduced by blunt resistance, so cutting damage that's converted into blunt is then mitigated by the leather/cloth under it.

This means plate on padding is fairly effective against arrows and blades (as long as they hit the plates - making finding the weak points the way past it) as well as blunt.

For more protection, add chain and now blades are also stopped even at the weak-points (but this is VERY heavy armor, so not much dodging and you're going to get slowly "staggered" to death alot - better have friends... ie: fine for a tank).

Light metal reinforced leather (scale/light plate/chain on leather) is much better mid-range armor, with good protection against every kind of attack, but every attack is also going to get a little damage through, so it's a battle of attrition. But it should be light enough to allow a little dodging/maneuvering, etc. VERY middle of the road armor.

Chain on padding is GREAT melee armor, having great protection against swords and clubs, but is almost worthless against arrows. However it should also be light enough to allow some dodging and a decent amount of speed to close on the archer (if he doesn't have friends getting in the way - but now he's got to shoot through them, so... trade-offs everywhere).

Pure Leather (or padded leather) is great for fast/sneaky types, being fairly light and quite, but providing only a little all-around protection.

Cloth - used either for some basic protection against fists/clubs (thick cloth/padding) or simple clothing (which might carry stealth bonuses or the like). Provides minimal protection, but also minimal weight allowing speed and dodging (also among the cheapest to buy/make).

Drawbacks/Trade-offs (i.e., balance):
plate/scale: Heavy (heaviest of armors), moderate dodge penalties (made even worse if the weight also encumbers you - so for the strongest, or people meaning to just stand there and take it, only). Moderate stealth penalties (from restrictions in mobility more than noise). Penalties to attack and defense skills as coverage increases (mobility decreases). Huge penalties to thieving (it just doesn't allow for the mobility needed for fast subtle movements) as coverage increases. "Blackened" plate can reduce the stealth penalties a bit but is more expensive, "polished" plate adds to taunt effectiveness and reduces defense penalties - but reduces stealth even further.)

Chain: Fairly heavy (but not as much as plate) but no dodge penalties (except from weight and encumbrance of course - it is still heavy). HUGE stealth penalties (it's noisy, much noisier than plate even). Great armor against swords - especially light fast sword attacks, but not so much against other types of attacks without something else under it to mitigate the force of the attack. Thieving penalties, especially if arm coverage is >90% (meaning it has gloves). No attack/defense penalties, chain allows for incredible mobility and flexibility. (cheaper than plate, but not alot cheaper - less material is used, but more time is required to make it.) "Oiled" chain option that reduces stealth penalties, but drastically reduces the already low pierce and blunt resistance - also much more expensive.) Chain is basically light plate that you can move in, but which gives vulnerability to ranged attacks and basically no stealth as trade-offs.

Leather: Moderate weight, but much lighter than chain. Minor attack/defense penalties, especially as it gets thicker (and restricts finer movements). Fairly cheap (though not as cheap as cloth). Minor thieving penalties (from the reduced mobility). It's a good middle of the road armor, fair protection at a fair price at a fair cost to mobility (mostly in weight). "Blackened" option that can give net stealth bonuses (but is more expensive).

Cloth: Light, no penalties (or even bonuses for well crafted cloth armor). Can carry attack and defense bonuses (in the form of billowing cloth that distracts/obscures target outlines - like the old fencing cloaks - assisting feints and misdirection). Can also carry stealth and/or thieving (hidden pockets/etc.) bonuses at extra cost. The armor of the poor, and thieves (Leather is better combat armor if you still want to be dodgy/mobile since it'll provide better protection without really any encumbrance, but still interferes a little with stealth and thievery.)

LAST Caveat: Toughness ONLY reduces blunt damage (mental and physical fortitude mean nothing against an arrow in the heart, or a sliced tendon...) this is why tanks need plate/chain to convert damage into crushing damage. It does still help prevent staggering, wound progression, blood pool, KO point, etc. So toughness still definitely has its uses against blades and arrows, especially the "death by a thousand cuts" types), but the whole point of a sword is that it's the great equalizer, it makes even the toughest sob flinch/retreat. That's why they were invented... It's also why armor was invented... Conan the barbarian might be able to stay standing through 30 arrows, but he's still gonna take as much damage as little Timmy over there... This is why even super tough knights still wore plate, it was the lithe dodge (wimpy) types that eschewed armor, since getting hit sucked for them, so they focused on not getting hit/attacked in the first place... And used VERY SHARP daggers/light swords/fencing foils (instead of clubs) so that they could stick their tougher (unarmored) opponents...

Also, cutting/piercing damage should be lower compared to "equivalent" blunt weapons, so clubs/maces do alot of blunt damage and are great against chain and plate, but not so good against cloth/leather, and swords are basically turned into crappy and expensive versions of clubs against chain and plate.

Cutting weapons should be able to attack more often though (allowing them to find weak points in armor more frequently).

A last note on "quality" of armor and weapons:
Armor quality should affect overall weight (through better weight distribution, like a backpack does) and reduce attack/defense penalties (or increase bonuses) more than damage reduction (this allows high quality armors to have more layers/complete coverage without as significant penalties if you want to reduce damage more.) For instance, a well crafted plate armor doesn't really provide more/better protection than a poorly crafted plate armor (a little bit, but not significantly), but what it DOES do is allow a lot more dodging and parrying to occur, as well as a much wider range of attack methods, as it restricts movement much less than its poorly crafted counterpart.

Quality of weapons should have a bigger effect on attack and defense bonuses (especially for blunt weapons) and a lesser effect on damage (after all hit points don't increase over time, and toughness doesn't help against cutting damage now), and allow more frequent/faster attacks. For bladed weapons, quality should also change the ratio of cut to blunt damage (a sharper blade) - so low quality swords are more like crappy clubs than swords, and low quality clubs get fewer attacks (poor/awkward weighting). High quality blades are almost pure cutting damage (but have less or same overall damage since cutting is reduced compared to blunt), and high quality clubs are a little more damaging, but swing much faster and have reduced attack and defense penalties (as they are properly balanced and easy to turn/recover.)

==== Last thoughts ====
Obviously this idea needs more work, some balancing, technical feasibility checks, etc. And I welcome ideas/comments. But I think it'll help balance armor alot better than simply poking holes in plate to make plate an all-or-nothing endeavor, which frankly makes it kind of pointless, especially for end-game, where plate should be most effective... (and now would be as it is the best at converting piercing and cutting damage into blunt damage that your toughness can effect and so has a much bigger use for a tank than a newb - making equipping that new recruit with full plate something of an incredible waste of money and very inefficient use of encumbrance...)
Last edited by Maldrak on Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:35 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Maldrak
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:06 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:35 pm

One last THOUGHT about the above, attack skill vs. defense skill can change the ratios of coverage.

So, for instance, a high attack skill vs. low defense is more likely to hit the weakest area, and high defense vs low attack is more likely to direct attacks into the heaviest coverage.

Ie, to a low attack high defense attack, plate armor might effectively be more like 99% plate+chain, 1% chain.

And to a high attack vs low defense, that same plate might effectively be more like 85% plate+chain, 15% chain only...

While more realistic and a better mechanic, it might simply be too impractical to implement, especially in mass melees... But I thought I'd mention it...

Maldrak
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:06 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:09 pm

Just realized, I should probably give at least an example of what a few pieces of armor might look like in the tool-tip (all numbers are meant to be demonstrative, not quantitative, balancing is beyond the scope of this post unless/until more interest is expressed, making the investment of time worthwhile - I will certainly be willing to make mods to test these ideas and balance if the functionality is ever added to the game/FCS - even fully scripting the mechanics if that option should become available):

(PS: Ideally, while a few "pre-fabricated" armors may exist, I'd ultimately like players to be able to craft their own armors from a set of rules, freely trading coverage and protection for weight and cost, etc.)

I'll use the following material protection amounts in these examples (more for ease of math and to display relative effectiveness than a means of balancing against actual Kenshi numbers, that would take more time and testing as I stated, and is more dependent on other mechanics that may be changed as part of balancing)

Armor Values are all listed as: Pierce Resist/Conversion; Cut Resist/Conversion; Blunt Resist (this could be part of a tutorial page, or an extended tool-tip that pops-up if you hold it there long enough, etc. - I'm not really a professional UI designer :) )

== Plate ==
Scale (thin plate): 5/15; 5/15; 10%
Laminate (moderate thickness): 8/24; 8/24; 13%
Plate (Thick Plate): 10/30; 10/30; 15%

== Chain ==
Light Chain (single ply): 2/4; 4/15; 5%
Chain (two ply): 3/6; 6/24; 8%
Heavy Chain (3 ply): 4/7; 7/30; 10%

== Leather ==
Light Leather (thin): 1/3; 1/3; 10%
Medium Leather (medium): 2/5; 2/5; 13%
Heavy Leather (thick): 3/7; 3/7; 15%

== Cloth ==
Light (clothing): 0/3; 0/3; 10%
Thick (like winter clothing): 1/5; 1/5; 15%
Padding (Quilted cloth armor): 2/6; 2/6; 20%

== Example Armors ==
A version of "Full Plate" torso armor (Includes a bassinet to protect the neck):
Chest: 95% Thick plate+Thick Leather, 5% Chain+Thick Leather
Stomach: 90% Thick plate+Thick Leather, 10% Chain+Thick Leather
Arms: 85% Thick plate+Thick Leather, 15% Chain+Thick Leather (chain/leather gloves and joints)
Head: 20% Plate

Tool-tip would look like:
Coverage and protection:
Chest (95%): 13/37; 13/37; 30%
Chest (5%): 6/13; 11/31; 23%
Stomach (90%): 13/37; 13/37; 30%
Stomach (10%): 6/13; 11/31; 23%
Arms (85%): 13/37; 13/37; 30%
Arms (15%): 6/13; 11/31; 23%
Head (20%): 10/30; 10/30; 15%

(This armor would provide excellent protection against all kinds of attacks but would be extremely heavy and would reduce mobility and dodge alot, as well as defense and attack, so you'd get hit more often for less damage, and would need to be an experienced handler if you planned to fight back at all (attack) - but it's great armor for an experienced tank, or a non-combatant meant to be kept from dying).

What getting hit in this armor might look like:

6 points of cutting (a very weak attack - as from a farmer/other non-combatant using a rusty farm implement): 100% chance of no damage (can't dodge, but who cares - unless you get hit in the head btw...). This is why plate was created/worn, to deflect 100% of incoming "nicks and scrapes..."

20 points of cutting damage (a mid range hit, or attack by a light, but quick, blade):
-- High chance of (plate plus leather): 20-13=7, up to 31 converted to blunt (so all 7)= 7 blunt, reduced by 30% = 4.9 blunt damage (then further mitigated by toughness probably to around 2-3 for experienced tank, or the full almost 5 for a newb).
-- Small chance of (weak point hit, chain+leather): 20-11=9, convert up to 31 = 9 blunt, reduced by 23% = 6.93 blunt damage (to be received by toughness).

50 points of cutting (A very high end cutting attack):
Plate+Leather: 50-13=37, up to 31 converted to blunt = 6 cut, 31 blunt, blunt reduced by 30% = 6 cut+21.7 blunt damage (only the blunt is reduced by toughness, say by 50% for a final damage of: 6cut, 10.85 blunt).

Consider what this means though: this is a blade attack that CUT THROUGH a plate of metal! This is an incredible sword attack! However, armor plates are somewhat thin, and with enough force, the metal can buckle and allow penetration, which happened here... Mind you, had this been plate on chain, instead of plate on leather none of the cutting would've gotten through as cutting, but you're probably getting hit a bit more often... And plate on chain on padding (which would be nearly impossible to move in, but would make it impossible to cut you and would drastically reduce the damage) would render even this attack almost negligible (but heavy plate armor like that SHOULD render sword attacks almost meaningless.)

(BTW: Vs the "weak-points" this attack does 8 cut + 23.87 blunt/11.935 assuming 50% toughness reduction, for a total damage of 20 out of the original 50 - but this IS a fairly heavy armor with great toughness vs. an incredible sword attack.)

Also, for comparison a purely blunt attacks (which should be about 50% more damage at equivalent levels) look like:

9 Blunt: 3.15 blunt (after 50% toughness)/3.46 if hit a weak-point

30 Blunt (mid range, assuming 50% toughness): 10.5 blunt (as opposed to 4.9 vs the equivalent blade - this IS the point of plate armor and why you don't hit plate armor with a katana!)

75 Blunt (that ogre replaced his metal sheering construction tool with a tree...): 26.25 (with 50% toughness reduction) vs 6+10.85 (This is why Ogres don't wield swords, well that and the fact that 9 feet of razor sharp steel is EXPENSIVE and rare...)

Also note that: combo cutting/blunt attacks simply address the cutting (reducing then converting), then add the blunt converted from the cutting portion to the base blunt and reduce by blunt resistance OR apply the blunt resistance separately to each damage source(since blunt reduction is multiplicative, it doesn't matter the order -- add then multiple, or multiple each, then add)

Maldrak
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:06 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:16 pm

"Full" Plate/Heaviest Armor example:

Let's try a heavy plate with heavy chain, Heavy Leather and Full Padding to get a feel for what this armor mechanic can make possible: (though realize, all but the strongest characters should be moving like molasses and no character is going to be dodging/parrying much, or effectively attacking against a fast nimble opponent in this armor unless it's extremely high quality, and even then...)

Strong Points: 19/50; 22/73; 60%
Weak-points: 9/20; 12/47; 45%

Compared to our lighter Plate on leather:
Strong Points: 13/37; 13/37; 30%
Weak Points: 6/13; 9/31; 23%

Or Heavy padded Chain:
All points: 6/13; 9/36; 30% (great vs cutting, not so much piercing)

Or Padded Heavy Leather (relatively cheap and light):
All points: 5/13; 5/13; 35% (pretty good against all attack types and not too restrictive)

This armor would completely stop (the cutting portion of) cutting damage <95 damage, which should never happen in my scale, unless it hits a weak point, and even then... and is the whole point of this kind of armor: it's gonna keep you from getting killed, but not necessarily knocked out...

Also realize that you are paying a MINT, especially if of sufficient quality to actually fight at least a little bit in, and your enemy is just going to keep on hitting you until you eventually pass out, since only the sharpest blades should be pure cutting damage and you can't run away or really defend yourself/counter attack effectively, meaning you're basically going to be sitting there slowly moving to unconsciousness just waiting and hoping to get lucky enough to land a lucky/slow hit on your opponent and slow them down enough to turn the tides...

Maldrak
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:06 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:45 pm

(( Going to reserve this post for actual final balancing numbers if it gets there - this is the post that will include actual numbers as people do experimentation and post replies/etc. ))

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