Game survey

[Brettflan]

I agree that trading is far too profitable, and the main reason to me is that weight doesn't currently slow you down. If weight limits are implemented where heavy things slow you down or even keep you from being able to move at all if you're carrying to much weight, that would be a good start. Of course some trade goods currently don't have realistic weights either. Limiting the number in circulation of the small and lightweight but really expensive goods would be good too; not removing or changing them so much as just limiting the number likely to be available in any given trader's inventory.

Also, as much as I like being able to stack a bunch of large items in a player-worn trader's backpack, it is a little overpowered. I realize there are special backpacks owned by some NPC traders which allow larger stacks than the ones available to players, but I think the difference should be more pronounced so that the best backpacks available to players can't stack quite as much.

[UltimaVirus]

Then what we need is to figure out the exact cause of that tipping point.
Maybe its when you get strong and start looting vast amounts from dead traders or whole army squads?

For me it's when I have the physical ability to take on raiding traders. At the very minimum for me, it was a seven man squad with up toward 25 skill points in the first two and slightly less as you go down. After you do that to the less defended traders you're suddenly up 100,000. Also, I didnt realize you'd be having shacks. I figured 70,000 for the full-sized buildings that are already in game. I can totally understand a shack being 10,000. I think that tipping point is fine, though.

You've worked and trained and fought up to the point where you can take on a trader and his/her bodyguards. It's sort of like moving up to a battleship from a frigate; you're in a whole new class of gameplay.

I agree that trading is far too profitable, and the main reason to me is that weight doesn't currently slow you down.

I agree 100%.

[nuget102]

it seems the majority of the reason people get so rich is because they get a bit over powered....now i'm not saying put a level cap, that would kinda suck... what I am suggesting though is to have stronger enemies :3 maybe code it so that they don't appear until you reach a certain level? that would be kinda cool....anyone against that idea? :3 and also bigger towns could have more guards, while small trading post and smaller towns could have fewer guards...?

[aattss]

I think there are two things I recommend:

1. Make it so that guards will attack you if you attack the traders. You may need to tweak the amount of guards.
a. You may need to add it so that guards will remember you, or maybe guards will hunt you down or post a bounty for your head.

2. Make traders be able to earn and loose money. As such, they don't need to carry around as much money at any point in time because they can earn more later.

Edit:

it seems the majority of the reason people get so rich is because they get a bit over powered....now i'm not saying put a level cap, that would kinda suck... what I am suggesting though is to have stronger enemies :3 maybe code it so that they don't appear until you reach a certain level? that would be kinda cool....anyone against that idea? :3 and also bigger towns could have more guards, while small trading post and smaller towns could have fewer guards...?

That has been a feature confirmed to never ever ever be introduced to the game.

[UltimaVirus]

it seems the majority of the reason people get so rich is because they get a bit over powered....now i'm not saying put a level cap, that would kinda suck... what I am suggesting though is to have stronger enemies :3 maybe code it so that they don't appear until you reach a certain level? that would be kinda cool....anyone against that idea? :3 and also bigger towns could have more guards, while small trading post and smaller towns could have fewer guards...?

OHHHH MY GOOOOD. Please for the love of all things holy don't use a level scaling system. I'd rather die.

As the other posted said above me, a bounty might discourage people from outright hostility to traders. Bounty hunters could appear randomly at the entrances to cities, of whom would have a great amount of skill. They would disappear after your bounty is gone, of course. How you'd get rid of it, I have no idea.

[aattss]

I can think of two ways of getting rid of bounty hunters.

1. After a long time, like 8 months, they may just forget about you and focus on more recent bounties. Of course, that's if you can actually avoid experienced trackers for such a long time, not to mention that most methods of finding out if you still have a bounty involve going into the town and asking, so you may have to be patient or ask someone else to ask.

2. If you shed enough blood, they might give up and stop. Alternately, as killing is frowned upon by society, your infamy and bounty might go up, so you'll face living legends, or maybe even armies.

[toaster Assassin]

Though most the the profit was from trading, I believe two things:

1: A weight limit (As stated by others( items stored in the backpack would have a reduced weight)). This would limit the amount of cargo/per unit for trading between towns (Thus it would take several runs to make a decent profit). Also it would limit the ease of a single unit to loot an entire battlefield. (You want more things, you need more people) The weight limit capacity would increase based on strength.


2: NPCs would also loot. If you are the type that lets others do your fighting (i.e. the guards) then as a penalty, the guards should loot the corpse. What the NPC should be able to loot is the Cats,weapons or materials (Since guards/bandits wear uniforms (Bandits are all wearing the same colours,sounds like a uniform to me) they would not abandon their faction issued uniforms for some neutral/enemy coloured armour). By implementing this, the player would have to fight their own battles (Or have one guy looting while guards are busy fighting(Of course at the cost of one unit not fighting)). Also by implementing this the player would risk loosing some items from a corpse if they decided to leave it there. (The risk is only if another faction walks by (or you could just pick-up the corpse (But a weight penalty would limit that)).

[Dimler]

Normally what I'll do to start is rob bandits until I have enough money to get a decent amount of trade goods, then just go back and forth between two or three towns that are close together and trade. I only do this until I have enough money to get the best equipment for my starting group, which is between 4 and 6 people. from start to finish it takes about 20 to 30 minutes. after that money isn't really an issue because I can just keep trading or robing bandits to add more squad members.

[toaster Assassin]

Based on what I viewed, and what some of the forum goers I have mentioned. The two main sources of revenue are trading and looting. These two sources are hardly restricted, which enables the player to generate large amounts of Cats in a short period of time. The main problem is a lack of resistance that prevents the player from easily reaching the tipping point. Messing with enemy's skill levels or the merchants placement of items might be too limiting on the player. My belief is that if the main sources of revenue have some risks/penalties/competition, then the player's ability to reach the tipping point would have some resistance. I have established three possible solutions,which become even more effective if one than one is chosen. (two of the solutions were repeated from last post, but I was an idiot and forgot one (ninja editing probably wouldn't be helpful))
One:
Obtaining items is too plentiful/easy, there is no competition for the items (No threat of loss) and decent items can be acquired fairly easy. Maybe crazy desert scavenger faction or ability for factions (this would act as penalty for using guards to help) to loot Cats,weapons or items (armour would conflict with faction uniform)Player Solution: would be increase unit numbers/backpacks, more aggressiveness toward enemies,when near possible loot competition/guards or can just designate scavenger during battle/ with penalty of one less active fighter. Player would have to watch defeated enemies closer or risk loss.
Two: (Edited)
Currently there is no fatigue/weight issues implemented,but it is planned I am an idiot,(I forgot that all materials already have a weight (it has no current effect, however)) ), So weight will be an issue later and will help slow down the tipping point, also strength level will have an effect on carrying downed comrades.
Three:
Prices. When selling (for example 20 katanas) the trade value price should go down (For that particular store). Why would a shop-keeper pay the same trade price for the item when they already have an over-stock it? Supply goes up, price goes down, prices would rise as customers buy more and quantity in stock goes down. (I know prices vary from store to store, but does trade value vary from merchant's amount of stock/ or how large is the quantity you sell?) Player solution: Sell in different towns, or wait for caravans, which would be tedious but trading is rather active than static.

Yes, many solutions include more units, but effective shipping/logistic work relies on a large workforce, even with today's technology. So I believe that in order to slow the player's ability to reach the tipping point, there must be some type of resistance that the player needs to overcome. The major sources of revenue must have penalties that need to be considered (time, weight and space) and the must be a sense or competition,need or aggressiveness toward the acquiring of the good. (i.e. oh crap, can my people carry all of this gear? How much will they be slowed down and would they be able to carry a fallen comrade if need be? Who I going to stay behind to watch leftover loot? Is this short-cut through the mountains worth it?)

[UltimaVirus]

Along with what the above folks say (supply and demand), overall price fluctuation may be necessary. How hard could it be to have ACTUAL caravans trading ACTUAL supplies that change ACTUAL prices? Hypothetically, one could intercept caravans, starve the city of a particular supply then pop in with all the stolen goods and sell for a gigantic profit.

[toaster Assassin]

UltimaVirus said: How hard could it be to have ACTUAL caravans trading ACTUAL supplies that change ACTUAL prices? Hypothetically, one could intercept caravans, starve the city of a particular supply then pop in with all the stolen goods and sell for a gigantic profit.

The trade caravans would actually stir up the merchandise in the shopkeepers inventory.
The game will most likely use fluctuating prices and trading, it is intended to be a real-time game. Did you know that you can be hired to escort caravans to their destination city, so if caravans travel from city to city, One would assume that they will alter the local economy. My post above was intended to try and explain the reason that the players would reach the financial tipping point and become rich.(It wasn't intended to be a list of wanted features, but rather a list of features needed to prevent a very easy rags to riches experience) Most of these ideas are in the works (All items have a weight and there are different prices for different towns) so in time you will see all the pieces coming together. The topic was the question of why are players getting rich so fast,the lack of supply and demand (like you agreed) is one reason. Its not that Kenshi will not have it, it is rather that Kenshi currently lacks it. ->Alpha <-

[tkobo]

There is no tipping point,because money is never hard to get.

Simply looting the dead,will make you rich.From day one.

Best bet,is some money sinks.
*Like salaries for our followers.We pay them once and they are ours for life ? Thats got to change.

*Taxes,yes, you read that right.We exist in somebodies territory at the beginning,we travel into and out of somebodies territory on a regular basis.Tolls would work nicely.Give patrols something to do that makes sense.Even a token system,where patrols or guards will approach us,and sell us access to the territory for x amount of time,in the form of a token.Token expires, we have to buy another.Think of them as trade and or travel charters issued by the various factions to control trade and travel in their regions.

*Food and water.This is a major expense we somehow escape.Even if its nothing more than a minus to cash on hand every so many days,written off to staying fed.

[toaster Assassin]

tkobo said: Taxes,yes, you read that right.We exist in somebodies territory at the beginning,we travel into and out of somebodies territory on a regular basis.Tolls would work nicely.Give patrols something to do that makes sense.Even a token system,where patrols or guards will approach us,and sell us access to the territory for x amount of time,in the form of a token.Token expires, we have to buy another.Think of them as trade and or travel charters issued by the various factions to control trade and travel in their regions.

What would the consequence be for not renewing a token? Also, how would the guards know if you had a token or not?

[tkobo]

What would the consequence be for not renewing a token? Also, how would the guards know if you had a token or not?

Consequences could be a long list,depending on what faction relations make it into the game.Something simple to start off with,would be an order to leave the territory with the AI guard escorting you out.

How would they know ? A simple dialogue tree in which they ask to see your charter/token,and if you have one,you get a dialogue option to show it.If not, you get a dialogue option to say i dont have one,or try to bribe the patrol.

To keep from being asked by every patrol,put a flag on the party that lasts til it leaves the territory for a set amount of time.The flag would represent the patrol having sent word on ahead,that youve been approved for access to the territory.

[Dimler]

Consequences could be a long list,depending on what faction relations make it into the game.Something simple to start off with,would be an order to leave the territory with the AI guard escorting you out.

How would they know ? A simple dialogue tree in which they ask to see your charter/token,and if you have one,you get a dialogue option to show it.If not, you get a dialogue option to say i dont have one,or try to bribe the patrol.

To keep from being asked by every patrol,put a flag on the party that lasts til it leaves the territory for a set amount of time.The flag would represent the patrol having sent word on ahead,that youve been approved for access to the territory.

Or you could just set up a toll at the entrance of the city, you pay for entry papers or whatever you want to call it. then for so many game days you are allowed access to that city. once they expire you would have to pay again. to keep it from being tedious the game could just do a behind the scene yes/no check so you don't get stopped every time you are at the front gate.
of course then you run into problems like what if you don't have any money for the toll. should there be a market outside the city gates or would they allow you a day pass to sell some goods so you can afford the toll.
I think the simplest solution is your buildings and squad members should just have upkeep costs at some interval.

[nuget102]

Consequences could be a long list,depending on what faction relations make it into the game.Something simple to start off with,would be an order to leave the territory with the AI guard escorting you out.

How would they know ? A simple dialogue tree in which they ask to see your charter/token,and if you have one,you get a dialogue option to show it.If not, you get a dialogue option to say i dont have one,or try to bribe the patrol.

To keep from being asked by every patrol,put a flag on the party that lasts til it leaves the territory for a set amount of time.The flag would represent the patrol having sent word on ahead,that youve been approved for access to the territory.

Or you could just set up a toll at the entrance of the city, you pay for entry papers or whatever you want to call it. then for so many game days you are allowed access to that city. once they expire you would have to pay again. to keep it from being tedious the game could just do a behind the scene yes/no check so you don't get stopped every time you are at the front gate.
of course then you run into problems like what if you don't have any money for the toll. should there be a market outside the city gates or would they allow you a day pass to sell some goods so you can afford the toll.
I think the simplest solution is your buildings and squad members should just have upkeep costs at some interval.

I actually like the toll idea...but maybe there should just be toll's at the biggest towns? and maybe you could hire guards to escort you through the desert to another town, for those that travel alone...like me

[Lorenzo666]

I like the toll idea, maybe have a small fee for entering the town, but once you've left you have to pay again. Like tickets at a theme park.

And for other expenses, add food and water and possibly wages. I think wages will be okay if done right. I think you should only have to pay wages to hired Mercenaries rather than the basic guys you recruit because Mercs would be professionals with good stats and equipment probably.

[Blaccy]

I'm a bit late to this, but I figure I should at least state that most of my money is made through trading as well -- Its effortless, and by myself running about the world for about 3 hours, I amassed approx. 150k cats thanks to a medium trader's backpack, and constantly running.

Fatigue, weight limits, food and water requirements -- These things are probably what can and will curb the overly easy ability to trade to create a fortune. 10k cats sounds a little -too- low in my opinion for the basic shack, but until endurance and all the extra infrastructure of stats are put in to make trading more difficult, its hard to say where any tipping point is.

I don't believe wages is the best idea, admittedly. But that's because I can't help but make each sword for hire my own personal character in my head that has a personality and stuff, hah. And it would be frustrating to see them walk on me simply because I didn't have the cats at the right time. Maybe maintenance on buildings instead?

Tolls sound fun, but hopefully not all cities will have them, otherwise you'd have a heck of a time starting out at all! The start is already quite difficult to break through for any newcomer.

[aattss]

I think that tolls should be limited to what you see in real life (a quarter for one-time path), and should be, as in real life, over things like bridges and valley. Some may be respectable ones set up by orderly factions, others could be ones set up by bandits. However, overall, the token system doesn't make much of a sense. It would be simpler for them to just charge income tax. However, if you own a building, you may need to pay property taxes and/or protection money.

Otherwise, I believe that weight/fatigue and need for things like food are mainly the best way to resolve this.

[toaster Assassin]

I don't like the idea of paying wages for hired swords either and I agree with the feeling that they feel like main characters (I did create em all) rather than just nameless minions. I agree however, that anyone you didn't create (But employed, not enslaved) should be paid regular wedges.